Part 9

Mr. JENNER. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more?

Mrs. PAINE. It was getting on toward 5:30.

Mr. JENNER. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said "Why, that is all right."

Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.

Mr. JENNER. And nothing was----

Mrs. PAINE. She was clearly surprised also.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced and unexpectedly?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. At least not as of that moment.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that place, position?

Mrs. PAINE. Less than a minute.

Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only reconstruct it.

Mr. JENNER. That is all I am asking you to do.

Mrs. PAINE. I must have gotten groceries from the car.

Mr. JENNER. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me first your recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing just inside the doorway.

Mr. JENNER. Of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Of my home.

Mr. JENNER. But inside the home?

Mrs. PAINE. But inside now.

Mr. JENNER. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the doorway?

Mrs. PAINE. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud speaker. I was facing this way.

Mr. JENNER. Why were you facing outwardly?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to speak to Lee as he came in.

Mr. JENNER. Lee followed you in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did Marina come in?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into your home.

Mrs. PAINE. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room and the position he was in.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us.

Mrs. PAINE. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in, having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which I refer.

Mr. JENNER. What was the loud speaker?

Mrs. PAINE. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands--it is a big thing.

Mr. JENNER. Did something occur at that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President is coming to town." I believe I said it in Russian, our President is coming to town in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. And you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it again.

Mrs. PAINE. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have an attitude of indifference?

Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen.

Mr. JENNER. He went into your kitchen. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave your presence then and go to some other part of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He didn't leave the house to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in the general area in which you were in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did he pass from your sight?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection.

Senator COOPER. Tell what you remember.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence.

Mrs. PAINE. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started supper.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the inside of the house while you were doing this?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the yard during this period?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard.

Mr. JENNER. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And does the entrance to your garage--is there an entrance to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a picture of that area of your home, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your answer was yes?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that fact, were you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage while I was preparing dinner.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at anytime during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. I'd have to guess.

Senator COOPER. Just tell what you know.

Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know first.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was inside the house or outside the house?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall that she was inside the house.

Mr. JENNER. And where was the child June with respect to whether she was inside or outside the house?

Mrs. PAINE. She was inside.

Mr. JENNER. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also inside the house?

Mrs. PAINE. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house.

Mr. JENNER. Was he playing with his daughter?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. How long did it take you to prepare dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably half an hour.

Mr. JENNER. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas. By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still light?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late November?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say between 7 and 7:30.

Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate it in Irving, Tex., rather than Texas generally. About 7:30?

Mrs. PAINE. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly.

Mr. JENNER. When did you sit down for dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. I suppose around 6:30.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Was it still light outside, natural light?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. And how long did dinner take?

Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps half an hour.

Mr. JENNER. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner period?

Mrs. PAINE. Either there or in the living room.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection of that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the garage area?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did you?

Mrs. PAINE. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy.

Mr. JENNER. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in connection with the preparation of an evening meal?

Mrs. PAINE. I could have gone out then too.

Mr. JENNER. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible that you went into the garage.

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.

Mr. JENNER. Garage area.

Senator COOPER. But you don't remember?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit.

Mr. JENNER. It is so much habit that you don't single it out?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking to look for something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. I was busy putting my children to bed.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you located during that period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the back bedroom on the north side.

Senator COOPER. Did you do it that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Not normally but do you remember that you did it?

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a bath that night I can't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was also your bedroom----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect to other portions of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. The view from the bedroom door.

Mr. JENNER. Looking into what?

Mrs. PAINE. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past the doorway entrance to the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Can you see into the living room area of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. From that doorway you can; yes.

Mr. JENNER. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so.

Mrs. PAINE. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no.

Mr. JENNER. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, not into the living room area?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your children to bed?

Mrs. PAINE. That process can take as much as an hour and often does.

Mr. JENNER. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took this evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically how long.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour period?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that; no. I also prepare a bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your children for sleep that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was in the home.

Senator COOPER. How would you be aware he was in the home?

Mrs. PAINE. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be an unusual thing.

Mr. JENNER. Why would it be unusual?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening.

Mr. JENNER. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay inside?

Mrs. PAINE. Was to turn on the television set and sit.

Mr. JENNER. Did he turn on the television set?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe he watched television that evening.

Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he remained inside the house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was not out in the yard?

Senator COOPER. How would you know that?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain.

Senator COOPER. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did open?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds together with other evenings which were similar.

Senator COOPER. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got to tell what she remembers that evening.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just say what it is.

Senator COOPER. If you don't remember, you don't remember.

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry.

Mr. McCLOY. You can't break it down into sequence that far back?

Senator COOPER. Just tell what you remember.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening.

Mrs. PAINE. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I went to the garage to work.

Mr. JENNER. Was it now nighttime?

Mrs. PAINE. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock. I noticed that the light was on.

Mr. JENNER. Was the door to the garage open?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was closed.

Mr. JENNER. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened the door.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to that?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that evening; no.

Mr. JENNER. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment of which you speak?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time that you found the light on?

Mrs. PAINE. If I had only in this course of habit which also included if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it off.

Senator COOPER. You don't remember if you did that or not before.

Mrs. PAINE. Specifically, no.

Mr. McCLOY. She said she might have been.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a hand switch?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the kitchen or in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. The switch is in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit 435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that picture?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. And why is it not shown?

Mrs. PAINE. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining area overhead light.

Mr. JENNER. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the right of the doorjamb?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And rather high?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, is that a white plastic plate?

Mrs. PAINE. It is exactly.

Mr. JENNER. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429, that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the garage into your kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is shown in Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see the switch?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else.

Mr. JENNER. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down the garage doorjamb outline.

Mrs. PAINE. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Is that the light switch?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was higher.

Senator COOPER. You know there is a light switch there, don't you?

Mr. McCLOY. There is a light switch there.

Mrs. PAINE. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in the picture.

Mr. JENNER. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the kitchen floor level?

Mrs. PAINE. Are you still asking?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together.

Mr. JENNER. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at a level?

Mrs. PAINE. Approximately at a level.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, playing blocks.

Mr. JENNER. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time?

Mrs. PAINE. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Representative FORD. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you describe your attitude in this regard?

Mrs. PAINE. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off.

Representative FORD. This is a trait that you have?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the garage, is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on?

Mrs. PAINE. And off; yes.

Representative FORD. It is very simple for you to do so?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Both going out and coming in?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. And as you go out on your right or left?

Mrs. PAINE. It is on my left as I go out of the garage.

Representative FORD. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen it is on your right.

Mrs. PAINE. As you come into the garage from the kitchen----

Mr. McCLOY. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is on my right.

Mr. McCLOY. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it is on your left?

Mrs. PAINE. That is what he said.

Mr. McCLOY. You said it just the opposite, I think.

Representative FORD. I thought I asked the question and she responded in the reverse.

Mr. McCLOY. Maybe.

Representative FORD. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may show two different responses there.

Mr. JENNER. Could we recover that now?

Mrs. PAINE. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the two rooms.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, where is the switch with respect to whether it is on your right side or your left side?

Mrs. PAINE. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side.

Mr. JENNER. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on your right side. Now when you are in the garage and you are about to enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have any observation?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any other time that the garage light had been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally turn off a light when she was done, in the room.

Representative FORD. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off if she left a room?

Mrs. PAINE. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms--if she was the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or something like that she certainly would turn it off.

Mr. JENNER. Of course if she was going to bed she would turn the light off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off the light?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the time until bedtime. It is hard to answer.

Mr. JENNER. So the lights are on?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Would you make any observation about Lee's tendencies or traits in this regard?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies.

Mr. JENNER. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What were your habits with respect to closing the main garage door, that is the door opening onto the street?

Mrs. PAINE. That was always closed except to open just to take out the trash can.

Mr. JENNER. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open.

Mrs. PAINE. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI.

Mr. JENNER. So that normally your garage door is down?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Was it down when you arrived?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no such recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times?

Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down.

Mr. JENNER. It was down then?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were giving attention to your children, would you have heard it?

Mrs. PAINE. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have heard it.

Mr. JENNER. But if it were raised normally?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having been raised.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to lacquer those blocks?

Mrs. PAINE. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior portion.

Mr. JENNER. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.