Part 8

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him in a suit jacket.

Mr. McCLOY. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel?

Mrs. PAINE. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his T-shirt that night?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall?

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him when you saw him?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't really remember.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able to recall. Would you try to do that for us?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do it again if you like.

Mr. JENNER. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in the garage. Was it from out here?

Mrs. PAINE. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area.

Mr. DULLES. And you saw that light from the kitchen area?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway, opened the door, there was the light on.

Mr. DULLES. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be visible if it was dark in here.

Mr. DULLES. I understand. Through the door.

Representative FORD. And you spent about a half hour in the garage painting some blocks?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. What part of the garage----

Mrs. PAINE. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance.

Representative FORD. The entrance going into the----

Mrs. PAINE. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area. Right here.

Representative FORD. You didn't move around the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and make a place, a block is this big, to paint.

Representative FORD. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was at this time?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recollect. It was the next day----

Representative FORD. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand side?

Mrs. PAINE. Beyond.

Mr. McCLOY. Does anyone have any further questions?

Mr. JENNER. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the morning I will qualify the exhibit.

Mr. McCLOY. Is that all?

We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Friday, March 20, 1964

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.

Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Senator COOPER. You are still under that affirmation?

Mrs. PAINE. I understand that I am under that affirmation.

Mr. JENNER. May I proceed?

Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr. Chairman, may I qualify some documents?

The CHAIRMAN. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs. Paine? I am glad to see you this morning.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. She gave it to me a few days ago.

Mr. JENNER. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you mailed it to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page not being relative to this case.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you have the other page?

Mrs. PAINE. I have the other page.

Mr. JENNER. May I have it?

Mrs. PAINE. The other page, of course, contains my signature.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission Exhibit No. ----.

Mrs. PAINE. I'd rather not have that part of it----

Mr. JENNER. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be patient. Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at the page numbered 4? There is a signature appearing at the bottom of it. Is that your signature?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context in which the statements that are relevant were made.

You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would you look at that please? Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. No. This is the only time I saw--this is the only handwriting of his I have seen.

Mr. JENNER. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you familiar enough with his handwriting----

Mrs. PAINE. To know that this is his handwriting?

Mr. JENNER. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that Document before?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first see it?

Mrs. PAINE. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say 10th?

Mrs. PAINE. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document.

Senator COOPER. What is the answer?

Mrs. PAINE. It is that document.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document?

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw a typed transcript.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald asked you if he could use your typewriter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter or at least some document?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion of it arrested your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed document or was it the document that is before you?

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed.

Mr. JENNER. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter?

Mrs. PAINE. I made a duplicate in longhand.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a present recollection that this, Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which you saw in your home on your desk secretary?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 103 the document--oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer.

Senator COOPER. It is in evidence.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has already been admitted in evidence.

Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. It is an approximately accurate floor plan.

Mr. JENNER. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and sections of the home properly entitled?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the hallways in your home and the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is perfectly accurate.

Mr. JENNER. I think one thing only needs some explanation. In the upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area immediately to the left of the--of what is designated as kitchen-dining area.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room.

Mr. JENNER. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an arrow, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the driveway.

Mr. JENNER. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the garage always had too many things in it to get your car in?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification, is that a front view of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when the picture was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. But that is an accurate depiction?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Of the rear of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly accurate.

Mr. JENNER. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is that a view of the east side of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. East and north; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't know.

Mr. JENNER. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. West and north.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Despite that, is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. It is perfectly accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway area leading to the backyard of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. Is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered "kitchen-dining area."

Mrs. PAINE. It is a picture of that portion.

Mr. JENNER. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which is unlettered?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way, have you ever been in the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan and pictures of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle?

Mr. JENNER. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr. Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in existence.

I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. On several occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. Two or three; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Surrounding the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed; I am.

Mr. JENNER. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say it is.

Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you----

Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there and I am not certain.

Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the floor plan.

Mrs. PAINE. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking then west.

Mr. JENNER. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate picture of the front of the kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Which exhibit are you referring to now?

Mr. JENNER. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, 444, is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window?

Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Across the street?

Mrs. PAINE. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport from the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the carport; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the carport?

Mrs. PAINE. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. It looks like it.

Mr. JENNER. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking toward the Randle home, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is the west side of the Randle house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Showing that carport area?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is accurate, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is accurate.

Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 448----

Senator COOPER. What was the number of the photograph which you just referred to?

Mr. JENNER. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a view looking west along Fifth Street to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph--does that point to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an accurate photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window?

Mrs. PAINE. It looks to be exactly that.

Mr. JENNER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is, a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the street and on the corner is likewise shown.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.

Senator COOPER. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits which she has identified?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer, please.

Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day?

Mrs. PAINE. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the 21st.

Mr. JENNER. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would appear on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.

Mr. JENNER. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed you or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that her husband would or might appear at your home on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Irving, Tex., that afternoon.

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he was on the front lawn at my house.

Mr. JENNER. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. No word whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452.

Senator COOPER. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452 were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course.

Senator COOPER. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon, whom do you want to preside?

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all?

Representative FORD. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a conference out of town.

The CHAIRMAN. You are both going out of town, aren't you?

Senator COOPER. I can go and come back if it is necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here?

Mr. McCLOY. He is out of town.

The CHAIRMAN. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and come over.

Senator COOPER. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come back this afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for coming and for being so patient with our long questioning.

Mrs. PAINE. I am glad to do what I can.

The CHAIRMAN. You know that it is necessary.

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard. As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in which direction were you coming?

Mrs. PAINE. I was coming from the east.

Mr. JENNER. From the east?

Mrs. PAINE. Along West Fifth.

Mr. JENNER. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw Lee in your courtyard?

Mrs. PAINE. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth.

Mr. JENNER. That area is open from that point to your home; is it?

Mrs. PAINE. The area of the front yard; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk?

Mrs. PAINE. Moderately set back.

Mr. JENNER. What would you judge that distance to be?

Mrs. PAINE. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the sidewalk.

Mr. JENNER. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him?

Mrs. PAINE. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway.

Mr. JENNER. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street?

Mrs. PAINE. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position in the driveway.

Mr. JENNER. In your driveway?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Up close to the garage opening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing across the seat and get out at the right hand door?

Mrs. PAINE. I got out on the driver's side, on the left.

Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you go into your home directly? Did you walk around?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front lawn.

Mr. JENNER. Was their daughter June out in front as well?

Mrs. PAINE. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was playing with June.

Mr. JENNER. How was he attired?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt?

Mrs. PAINE. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that whatever it was was tucked in.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color of his trousers?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now at that point you were surprised to see him?

Mrs. PAINE. I was.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall greeting him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he was there?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think I did.

Mr. JENNER. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from you for him to appear?

Mrs. PAINE. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked permission prior to coming.

Mr. JENNER. And there never had been an exception to that up to this moment?

Mrs. PAINE. No exception.