Part 7

Mr. JENNER. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? You returned on September 24?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to fix it at the latter part of October?

Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you stumble over it or something?

Mr. McCLOY. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Conceivably, but I don't remember.

Mr. DULLES. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later was that?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't fix it that near.

Mr. DULLES. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; that was later.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?

Mrs. PAINE. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.

Mr. JENNER. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you did not----

Mrs. PAINE. So I think I would have seen it.

Mr. DULLES. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the assassination that afternoon.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that time.

Mr. JENNER. On the 22d?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to take her chronologically.

Mr. DULLES. Just so you recall that.

Mr. McCLOY. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, if he went to Houston?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in October, therefore.

Mr. McCLOY. But later than the 7th of October, you think?

Mrs. PAINE. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.

Mr. McCLOY. But well before the day of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. Surely.

Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and 17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to your home.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not to come that particular weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.

Mrs. PAINE. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?

Mrs. PAINE. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over what night it was.

Mr. JENNER. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to Lee and you did so at her request?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to attempt to get a driver's license permit.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he had given me, with his number in my telephone book.

Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call papa" and asked me----

Mr. JENNER. Was this at night?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening, still light.

Mr. JENNER. Was it on a weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of that.

Mr. JENNER. Was it----

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.

Mr. JENNER. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly it was.

Mr. JENNER. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday preceding November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on the phone.

Mr. DULLES. I realize that.

Mrs. PAINE. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.

Mr. DULLES. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone messages which we are now discussing?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there was no irritation I noticed.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?

Mrs. PAINE. I am absolutely clear about that.

Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had given us. I then dialed the number----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number?

Mrs. PAINE. The second number.

Mr. JENNER. And that number is?

Mrs. PAINE. WH 3-8993.

Mr. JENNER. When you dialed the number did someone answer?

Mrs. PAINE. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that effect.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is nobody by that name here"?

Mrs. PAINE. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these.

Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that he repeated the name.

Mr. JENNER. He repeated the name?

Mrs. PAINE. But that is not a certain recollection.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person who answered was a man?

Mrs. PAINE. Was a man.

Mr. JENNER. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what occurred?

You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said, "Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up.

Mr. JENNER. When you hung up then what did you next do or say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that number."

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say anything.

Mr. JENNER. Just said nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. She looked surprised.

Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any surprise?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, she looked surprised.

Mr. DULLES. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you, you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind?

Mrs. PAINE. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker practice, and I don't normally do it that way.

Mr. JENNER. Contrary to Quaker practice?

Mrs. PAINE. They seldom use "Mister."

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you?

Mrs. PAINE. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him.

Mr. JENNER. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him. Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply.

Mr. JENNER. But you did?

Mrs. PAINE. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there."

Mr. JENNER. Did you report this incident to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after I asked you the next.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this telephone call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Lee called----

Mr. JENNER. What was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly was upset, and angry, and when she hung up----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific content.

Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall what was said?

Mrs. PAINE. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately after, which is what I definitely recall.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22 fires," a Russian expression.

Mr. JENNER. This is something she said?

Mrs. PAINE. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the first time she had mentioned it to me.

Mr. JENNER. Give her exact words to me again.

Mrs. PAINE. When she felt 22 fires.

Mr. JENNER. That is the expression she used?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask for an explanation?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant, she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife.

Mr. DULLES. How long a conversation was this. Was it----

Mrs. PAINE. Fairly short.

Mr. DULLES. Fairly short.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Representative FORD. What day of the month and what day of the week was this?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back on Tuesday.

Representative FORD. When he called back it was late in the afternoon or early evening?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, around 5:30.

Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung up?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she was angry, she was upset.

Mr. JENNER. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the assumed name?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had used it.

Mr. JENNER. He was angry with her because you had made the call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or she had made it through you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion take place between you and Marina on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the following day, the 20th?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a day.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day?

Mrs. PAINE. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me."

Mr. JENNER. For what?

Mrs. PAINE. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done something he didn't want her to do, the objection.

Mr. JENNER. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing I would specifically recall; no.

Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.

Mr. JENNER. You had no advance notice?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could.

Mr. JENNER. Never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come?

Mrs. PAINE. Without asking permission; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina, who was also out on the lawn.

Mr. JENNER. And you were, of course, surprised to see him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you walk over to speak with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may have happened.

Mr. JENNER. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Between me and Lee Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; on that occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on the side.

Mr. JENNER. First. Didn't you greet him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I greeted him.

Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do, walk in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina out on the lawn also?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else.

Mr. JENNER. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was rather my own, too.

Mr. JENNER. And it was your own?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to see if he could make up with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do I fairly state it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note what he did?

Mrs. PAINE. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on.

Mr. JENNER. The light was on in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. The light was on in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Was this unusual?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished my work and then turned off the light and left the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Have you completed that now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he was in the garage?

Mr. McCLOY. She didn't state that.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and I know I didn't leave the light on.

Mr. JENNER. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Until you retired for the night?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Any persons moving about?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Before you retired?

Representative FORD. You discovered that when you went out to work there?

Mrs. PAINE. When I went out to work there.

Mr. McCLOY. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a coolness between them?

Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn as we----

Mr. JENNER. I mean coolness between himself and--between Lee and Marina.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."

And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a common reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite catch his answer.

Mrs. PAINE. "Ah, yes," a very common answer.

Mr. JENNER. He gave no more than that laconic answer?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that the President was coming into town the next day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that sort.

Mr. JENNER. What time did you have dinner that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. 6 or 6:30, I would guess.

Mr. JENNER. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were conscious of the fact he was not in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the house, conscious of it.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of his being out of the house anytime that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did he do any reading that evening--books, papers, anything?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. What were you doing that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and probably after some dishes were done.

Mr. JENNER. Who did the dishes?

Mrs. PAINE. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour.

Mr. JENNER. That would take as much as an hour?

Mrs. PAINE. That takes as much as an hour.

Mr. JENNER. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock, are we?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from 6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put the children to bed.

Mr. JENNER. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't discuss it.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't mention it to her?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't discuss it.

Representative FORD. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but that is about all I recall that he did.

Representative FORD. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Marina did help around the house?

Mrs. PAINE. She helped a great deal.

Mr. McCLOY. She was a good helper?

Mrs. PAINE. She is a hard worker.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well as you can the time of evening.

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was about 9 o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9 o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was already retired?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Marina was still up?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain up?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers, laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the one before, we discussed plans for Christmas.

Mr. JENNER. You and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking about making a playhouse for the children.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe Lee's attire when you first saw him on the lawn when you returned that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring--do you know whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character that you have identified around your home that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he have----