Part 68

Mr. EISENBERG. So that the recovered cartridge cases, there is one more recovered R.-P. cartridge case than there was recovered bullet?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And as to the bullets, there is one more recovered Winchester-Western bullet than there is Winchester-Western cartridges?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Representative BOGGS. How would you account for that?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The possibility exists that one bullet is missing. Also, they may not have found one of the cartridge cases.

Representative BOGGS. Are you able to match the bullet with the cartridge case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not possible.

Representative BOGGS. So that while you can establish the fact that the cartridge case, the four that we have, were fired in that gun----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. You cannot establish the fact that the bullets were fired in that gun?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Representative BOGGS. And you cannot--having the cartridge case and the bullet--you cannot match them up?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, you cannot.

Representative BOGGS. There is no way to do it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; other than what I have said. In other words, you can tell manufacture. But there is no way of--that I know of--of connecting or identifying a particular bullet having been loaded into a particular cartridge case.

Representative BOGGS. But there is no doubt about the fact that the four cartridge cases came from firing in that weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were fired in that weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you said before that you would be missing a bullet--under the explanation you gave--would you be missing both a bullet and a cartridge case?

Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, before you answer that question. What testimony have we developed with reference to this delay in the transmission of these bullets to either the FBI or to the Commission?

Mr. EISENBERG. Just what you have heard. Would you like to have it developed further?

Representative BOGGS. Well, is this within his competence?

Mr. EISENBERG. I do not think so. I can state for the record myself that about 2 weeks ago I requested--I made a request of Mr. Conrad, who is the Assistant Director in charge of the FBI Laboratory--that the three Tippit bullets which had not theretofore been examined, be examined. At that point they had not yet been sent from the Dallas Police to the FBI, and no request had apparently been made for them.

Representative BOGGS. Well, the FBI obtained one almost immediately.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. And then there was how long a delay before the other three?

Mr. EISENBERG. You have the dates there, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The date was--we obtained the first one on November 23, 1963, and then----

Representative BOGGS. The day after the killing of Officer Tippit?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; it was delivered at the same time as all the other material. And then it was returned November 17, 1963.

As far as the FBI is concerned, sir, we have no jurisdiction in that case. We were doing the lab work for the Dallas Police Department, but in the investigation of the death of Officer Tippit we do not have jurisdiction.

Representative BOGGS. How did the Commission ascertain that these additional bullets were there?

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, upon review of the underlying materials, it developed that while one bullet had been taken out of Officer Tippit as soon as he got to the hospital, which was apparently the first bullet, the one examined November 23, three further bullets were taken out at the autopsy. And since we knew that only one bullet had been examined by the FBI, and since we knew at that point that three further bullets had been taken out, we asked that those three further bullets be examined.

Representative BOGGS. What proof do you have though that these are the bullets?

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, again, we will have to connect it up at a subsequent time. They were turned over to the FBI Dallas Office, were they, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Representative BOGGS. I am talking about the three bullets now, not the first bullet.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; turned over to the FBI Dallas Office by the Dallas Police. Now, we will have to connect up by deposition or testimony before the Commission on the origin of those bullets, and proof is not in the record now, as it is not in the case of many of these items, as to origin. However, I have no doubt that we will be able to connect it up and put it all in the record.

Representative BOGGS. Has there been any inquiry made as to why there was this delay in removing the other three bullets to the FBI?

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, as Mr. Cunningham stated, I was told since this was not within the jurisdiction of the FBI, they would only examine evidence which was given to them. And since it had not been given to them, they had not examined it.

When I asked for it, there was a formal request made for them, and they made their examination at that point.

Is that your understanding, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct, sir. In other words, we will do laboratory examinations for any duly constituted law-enforcement agency upon request. And we did it in this case. We offer our facilities but do not go out and ask for work. Since we have no jurisdiction in the killing of Officer Tippit, we would make no investigation and therefore, we would have no reason to go and ask for additional bullets, until of course this Commission asked us to, and then we did on behalf of the Commission.

Representative BOGGS. Do you have any theory, and this is just a theory, you understand, as to this discrepancy in these results as compared to the cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Inasmuch as there are three Western bullets, you would be missing one Western cartridge case, and one Remington bullet. You are missing one of each. He could have missed one of the shots. I do not know how many times he actually fired the weapon. But he could have missed once. It is very possible that he could have. And depending on the angle, it would be very difficult to find that bullet unless it struck some close intervening object. Also I have no first-hand information, again, but I believe that some neighbor turned in these cartridge cases to the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. EISENBERG. I believe that is correct.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You have received a letter from the Dallas office of the FBI just recently, I believe, setting forth that information.

Representative BOGGS. That would account for one. There would still be another one, would there not?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There would be just one cartridge case missing.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other logical theory which could explain the results?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Of course, he could have had an empty cartridge case remaining in the weapon at the time he fired it. Then he would only have fired four shots, and then a bullet is still unaccounted for. That would explain it also.

Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, if he had an unejected R-P cartridge case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No--a Western.

Mr. EISENBERG. You mean an unejected Western cartridge case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And he fired two Winchester and two R-P bullets--now in that case--and, if he then ejected he would get three Winchester and two R-P bullets, would he not--that is, cartridge case--if he had an extra cartridge case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If he had an extra cartridge case----

Mr. EISENBERG. He would get five cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, if he had an extra cartridge case, say a Remington----

Mr. EISENBERG. I was right the first time. Suppose he has an extra Remington?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, then you would have lost a Western. If he fires four times?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And he has the fifth one in. You would still have to have three Western cartridges loaded in and one Remington cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. But then----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Which is four.

Mr. EISENBERG. But then you only have to lose one cartridge case. You do not have to lose a bullet and a cartridge case.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right. You do have to lose one case.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the case you lose would be a Western case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. Western.

Representative FORD. Is it unusual to have a mixture of this kind in a pistol?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Usually they are all the same brand. Although if you have two boxes--.38 Special cartridges come in boxes of 50. And you will see hand-loaders once in a while. By the way, we found no indication that they had been hand loaded.

Representative BOGGS. Is this a police weapon as well?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; and a very good one. Not in that particular caliber. In other words, the caliber----

Representative BOGGS. That is what I meant.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. .38 S&W is not a popular cartridge in this country. The .38 Special is.

Representative BOGGS. .38 Special is?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. That cartridge.

Representative BOGGS. With police forces?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We use it. Most of your larger police forces use the .38 Special. It is a better cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Getting back to the example we were using before as a second possible theory--the cartridge case that would be lost would be a Western case, I believe actually?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, it would be a Western case.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, also getting back to a subject we were discussing, I will quote in part from a letter from Mr. Hoover to Mr. Rankin dated March 31, 1964.

"On March 30, 1964, Mr. Eisenberg requested that the Dallas Police Department be contacted to determine whether any additional cartridge cases had been recovered." And I say parenthetically I mean in addition to the four which we have seen here.

"On March 30, 1964, Lieutenant Carl Day, Dallas Police Department, advised the Dallas office of this Bureau that all of the cartridge cases and bullets recovered had been previously submitted to the FBI."

You mentioned or discussed the question of hand loading. Can you describe what you mean by hand loading?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Hand loading is nothing more than taking components and by means of a press you make your own cartridges. You put them together.

Mr. EISENBERG. In this process, would you be able to take a bullet of one manufacturer and a cartridge case of another?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. You said that you found no evidence that that had been done in this case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We found no sizing marks on the cartridge cases, which after the first time it has been fired, you many times have to resize it, due to the fact that one chamber can be too large. They always full-length resize, for in a police department many officers will be using this ammunition. You might not resize if one were only firing them in one gun. In other words, you are limiting the chambers of your cylinder that they will fit into. But normally they are full-length resized, and from this you get these sizing marks. Actually they are scrape marks from the sizing die.

Mr. EISENBERG. In a hand-loading operation, is the equipment needed bulky or small?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is quite bulky.

Mr. EISENBERG. If Oswald had hand-loading equipment, would it have been likely to have been turned up among his personal effects? Could it be easily missed?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You could not miss it; no, sir.

Representative FORD. When you say bulky----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. A "C" press or an "O" press will stand anywhere from 10 to 12 inches high with a 2-foot handle. Your turret-type would run almost a foot and a half high above the table. And they are all made very heavy because of your full-length resizing--not only on your small revolver cartridges, but for all your hunting cartridges--that takes great pressure. They are heavy duty. And you need quite a bit of equipment. Most of the time there will be a case trimmer, your complete press--there is a primer press, and then you have to have dies for the cartridge you are loading--your sizing dies and your bullet dies that you use to press the bullet into the cartridge case. Then there are all sorts of sundry equipment that go along with hand loading--your powder measurer, which is usually quite large if it is one that will do it volumetrically. True, you can have a balance and weigh out a particular amount for each one, but it takes an awful lot of time. Normally they are volumetric powder measures. You tip it and it puts a certain amount of powder into the cartridge case.

Representative FORD. Is it expensive equipment to buy?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Originally, yes. Comparatively so. A good press, I think you can buy one anywhere from $29 to over $100. You will have to invest, I would say, $150 to have a fairly good outfit. But over the years it is a cheap investment. Instead of paying $2.80 a box, or $2.85 a box, you are turning out cartridges, once you have your brass, for--even rifle, hunting cartridges--for about 7 cents, and lead bullet cartridges down to around 3 cents apiece.

Representative FORD. $2.80 a box?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have the component list here from Western. I do not have the cost per box of ammunition, but it can run anywhere from $2.25 all the way up to $6 to $8 for some of your larger hunting rifle cartridges--boxes of 20 in hunting ammunition, boxes of 50 in your revolver and pistol ammunition.

Even buying components, it is comparatively cheap. If you buy them by the hundred, and they will run, for instance the .38 Special, 158 grain lead bullets per hundred, only $2.80, and that is for original components. If you have the brass, your powder cost is negligible--probably a penny a cartridge, half a cent a cartridge for a .38 Special. So it saves you so much money if you are a target shooter, for instance, it is advantageous to do it if you like to shoot.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is that a skilled operation, hand loading?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Basically, no. Once you have the basic--if you do any reading on it, and you take your time, and are very careful, it is not a difficult operation at all.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would a----

Representative BOGGS. How are these cartridges loaded mechanically--not like this hand loading.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is all done on large machines. They buy their lead, for instance, in rods. They ask for a lead alloy of a certain hardness. Then these machines--they feed in the rods in the bullet-making machines, and they cut them off to length. They have different diameter rods. For a .38 the rod diameter would be approximately .357" or .358". Then this machine comes down in a swaging operation.

Another machine puts the knurling around--forming the lubricating grooves, and another groove. They tumble out as fast as the machine can run.

Then you have your case formation. They buy their cases--they look like little cups of copper. Actually it is a copper alloy. And then you go through a drawing process, and then an annealing, and a drawing and annealing, and a drawing and annealing of these brass cases. And then once you get them to approximate length, you full-size them and form the cases. The machine keeps tumbling them out.

And a small lathe--as these cases are going around--turns the case and puts in the extraction groove--all automatically. Another machine comes up from the bottom and puts the head stamp in. Another one is a drilling operation, and it puts in the holes for the primer and also the flash holes into the case. All done automatically. And they tumble into a big box.

Then they take those components and they put them on the line. The primers are all done by hand, except for shotgun primers at Western.

There are girls sitting at these presses who do 50 or 100 at a time. They put guide plates into the machine in which the girls put the primers. They are automatically loaded. All the primers are put in by hand, in essence.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, what is the advantage of hand loading in terms of cost, if you do not have your own shells to start with?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There again your initial cost is fairly expensive. For instance, for the .38 Special, unprimed cases, the list price per hundred last year, was $4.60 a hundred. The primed cost $5. The primers cost 20 cents----

Mr. EISENBERG. So there is a saving even if you do not provide your own shells?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Oh, yes--and the bullets would cost----

Mr. EISENBERG. How many primers?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. One hundred. And 158 grain lead, .38 Special bullets are $2.80. So $7.80 plus $2.00 worth of powder and you are in business.

Mr. EISENBERG. For $9.80?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how much would the bullets cost you if you bought them commercially already prepared?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I think it is $2.50 per 50.

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, that is more. $2.25 per 50, did you say?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. $2.85? I never buy any ammunition of that type. I do not know.

Mr. EISENBERG. So for a hundred that would be $5.90.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would say it is closer to $8 per hundred for .38 Special.

Mr. EISENBERG. So it is cheaper to buy them that way than to buy the components?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is cheaper to buy your components when you do not have to buy the cartridge cases.

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, now, is it possible that a gunsmith would buy the components, including new cases, and reload together a case from Western-Winchester and a bullet from Remington-Peters?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't think that a gunsmith would buy the new cases. That is what I was saying. For instance, used .30-.06 brass, right here in town--you can buy it locally. You can buy National Match Cases, which are excellent brass. I think they are a nickel a piece; $5 a hundred.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are they as good as the new cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are once-fired cases. They are excellent.

Mr. EISENBERG. So in you opinion does the possibility that this discrepancy in bullets and cartridge cases can be explained in terms of reloading make much sense? Does it have a high degree of probability or a low degree of probability, would you think?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am sorry.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you think it probable or improbable, in light of all your testimony, that the discrepancy between the number of recovered bullets and the number of recovered cartridge cases can be explained in terms of a reloading operation of some kind, or hand loading?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I do not. It is improbable, because we found no indication of any reloading operation. And in an examination of all the cartridges that we had examined, there was no indication of a reloading operation on those. They looked like factory bullets and factory cases.

Mr. EISENBERG. And if you were going to reload, you would use used cartridges rather than new ones?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You would use used brass, because you usually can pick it up at ranges and places like that. You would not even have to buy it.

Representative BOGGS. By that you mean you would use these? (Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 595.)

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult--in other

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult on account of the case. They would be hard to resize on account of the fact the case is pushed out due to the rechambering. But they could be used; yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say there is no indication, would there be an indication if they were resized?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; usually--unless the sizing die was extremely clean--usually you will get your resizing marks from the resizing die.

Mr. EISENBERG. And in particular you say the cartridge cases from this particular weapon show a substantial amount of bulge?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They do. As you brought to my attention, there is a crack in the one case. I would not care to use this type of brass if I were hand loading. I would find brass that had been fired in a .38 Special.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, by the way, the various cartridge cases, the four cartridge cases and four bullets that you have identified, and that you obtained from your Dallas Office and other sources, that is, Exhibits 594 and 602, 603, 604, and 605, are these now in the same condition as they were when you originally got them?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Substantially. A small sample was taken off the noise which was run spectrographically. But the major portions of all these bullets are the same as when they were received in the laboratory.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you clean them in any way or alter them?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; we had to clean them. They were removed from the body and were bloody. You could not see the surfaces. We had to put them in haemo-sol, which is nothing more than a material that will take out the blood.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is that true of all four bullets? That is true of the last three bullets as well as the original bullet?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Q-13 was cleaned of blood tissue in haemo-sol. I do not think I have anything in the notes that the last three were cleaned at all.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would that indicate they were not cleaned?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would say so, because I would have put it down.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was the substance removed from the first bullet tested to see whether it was blood, or did you just assume it was blood?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No examination was made of it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was there any dirt on the cartridge case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't remember any.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would your notes show if you had cleaned it up?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And they do not show any cleaning up?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No.

Mr. EISENBERG. You said these revolver bullets were sold in boxes of how many?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Fifty.

Mr. EISENBERG. Will a storekeeper, a gun man who sells bullets, sell less than 50 usually, in your experience?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Maybe some small outfit would. But I just don't know of any around here that will.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Oswald was found with two types of ammunition, two makes of .38 Special cartridges. Would you infer than that----

Representative BOGGS. What two types?

Mr. EISENBERG. R.-P., or Remington-Peters, and Western-Winchester.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were Westerns.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you infer on the basis of your previous statement that he had probably bought a larger quantity?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The inference would be that he had at least two boxes.

Mr. EISENBERG. At some point?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; either that or he had obtained them from another individual.

Mr. EISENBERG. How about the rifle ammunition, this 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle ammunition--how is that commonly sold--the Western brand?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would depend on the surplus house, how it is sold.

Mr. EISENBERG. You think that might be sold in less than fixed minimum quantities?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many times that type of ammunition, surplus ammunition, is sold in any amount. They will give a single price, single cartridge price--or they will take off some if you buy them by the thousand or the hundred. That is a lot different than commercially made ammunition for sale in this country.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to examine this witness now on the paraffin test, if there are no further questions on the areas we have been covering up to now.

Representative FORD. Any questions, Mr. Boggs?

Representative BOGGS. I don't think so.

Representative FORD. Mr. Rhyne?

Mr. RHYNE. Yes; you said that you were positive that these cartridge cases that were found near where Officer Tippit was killed, and which are over in front of Representative Boggs now, were fired in this gun.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As I stated the first time, in my opinion those cartridge cases were fired in that particular weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Mr. RHYNE. And with respect to the bullets that were found in the body of Officer Tippit, you testified that you could not be positive that they were fired by this weapon, Exhibit 143.