Part 65

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, in the operation of this weapon, the cylinder takes six bullets--is that correct?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. In the operation of this weapon, when six bullets have been loaded into the cylinder, is any action needed for firing except six consecutive trigger pulls?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. You can fire this weapon either single or double action.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain the meaning of that?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Double action is accomplished by pulling the trigger. In other words, you just pull the trigger each time and you can fire this weapon six times before reloading. This weapon can also be cocked, which puts the sear on the step of the hammer and reduces the trigger pull, and may be fired that way. This is known as single action.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well as the empty cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. Then he can extract the cartridge cases and load in more.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate that?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If I may have a cartridge, please.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this morning, I fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in the cylinder.

Mr. EISENBERG. You are now placing an unfired----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the cylinder. Now, in a normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, push in your hand like this, and tip it up. The unfired cartridge will fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of the cylinder are naturally larger than the cartridge you are loading in there--for ease of putting them in. When you fire a cartridge in a revolver, the case expands as wide as the cylinder. In other words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an explosion in the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and the terrific pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit the chamber.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells remained in.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that Mr. Cunningham extracted the five expended cartridge cases merely by one push of the ejector rod.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You won't be able to see it again, but when you eject a cartridge case--later on for the powder pattern test, I will show that you can have residues of unburned powder. That is what would happen if you ejected these cartridge cases in your hand. You would pick up unburned powder, residues, and partially burned powder.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham had ejected five cartridge cases from the revolver into his hand, and his right hand is now filled with small black particles, whose composition I am unable to determine.

Representative FORD. That would happen any time that you did it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; every time you eject them, these particles will come out from the cylinder into your hand--unburned powder, partially burned powder, and gunpowder residues.

Representative FORD. Had you fired this morning these particular bullets?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; at 8:15.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, these cartridge cases which you ejected were .38 Special cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were.

Mr. EISENBERG. What time did you fire those bullets, those .38 Special bullets in this revolver?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately 8:15 this morning.

Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that it is now 9:45. Now, Mr. Cunningham, could this revolver be loaded on the run, or while walking?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It could.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you personally loaded a revolver like this while walking?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. And running.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does this revolver have a serial number on it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you read that number to us, please?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. V-510210.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this serial number unique to this particular type of weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Smith and Wesson does not duplicate numbers. You may have a similar number, but not with the prefix "V."

Mr. EISENBERG. So this is the only such weapon with this serial number that is in existence?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. As far as I know. I have never found one in my experience, and Smith and Wesson does not duplicate serial numbers in a particular series of weapons.

Mr. EISENBERG. Smith and Wesson claims not to duplicate?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, how fast could one get off shots from this weapon, shooting rapid fire, and without sighting?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In a combat stance, that is crouched, with a gun at belt level, and your wrist locked, you would have no trouble at all getting off five shots in from 3 to 4 seconds.

Mr. EISENBERG. With what degree of accuracy at close range?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Excellent. All FBI agents, for instance, practice at 7 yards, which is 21 feet, and we are hitting in the "kill zone" without any problem.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much training would one have to have with this weapon to get four hits in four or five shots at close range into a human body?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever--if you can pull the trigger and point directly at a person, at 8 feet you would not likely miss--with one exception. If you did not lock your wrist, there is a possibility you could shoot too low, or you could pull to the side. Anyone with a little bit of knowledge and with--and really grabbing hold of the weapon, would have little difficulty at all at that distance.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "lock your wrist," do you mean just pointing the wrist so that it is in a straight line with your lower forearm?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. In other words, to tighten it, and not be in a relaxed position. By merely tightening the wrist, you would have no trouble at all hitting a person, approximately the same distance as Mr. Eisenberg and myself.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose a person who had the normal small-arms training that he gets in the Marine Corps would have the ability to do what you have just spoken of?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, sir. As a matter of fact, with any training at all with a revolver, I would say that he would hit 90 percent of the time.

Representative FORD. Is there a recoil action at all from this kind of weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; you get recoil. But if you have had any training with a weapon of this sort, the recoil is not even noticed. The first time you ever fired this weapon the recoil or the noise, might bother you. But if you have ever fired a handgun, you don't even think about recoil. You automatically adjust.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, you mentioned distance between you and me earlier, a few sentences ago. Could you estimate that distance?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Approximately 8 feet.

Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on the revolver, I propose to move on to identification of bullets and cartridge cases associated with the Tippit murder.

The CHAIRMAN. I have none.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I hand you Commission Exhibits Nos. 145 and 518, which, for the record, consist of bullets, unfired bullets which were found in the revolver and the pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald following his arrest on November 22. I ask you whether you are familiar with the bullets in these exhibits.

You are now looking at which exhibit, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518.

I have seen them before.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these bullets very briefly?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. They are cartridges. There are four cartridges. Two are Western .38 Special with copper-coated lead bullets loaded into these cartridges. The other two are Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridges, which are loaded with lead bullets.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in the other exhibit?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of one Western .38 Special cartridge, which is also loaded with a copper-coated lead bullet, and the other cartridge is a Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge, which is loaded with a lead bullet.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you another group of bullets, marked Q-82 through Q-86.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eisenberg, would you state for the record at this time what those two bullets are? They are introduced another time.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; all the bullets which Mr. Cunningham examined were found either in the pocket or the--pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald--or the cylinder of his revolver at the time of his arrest on November 22.

I now hand you another group of bullets marked Q-82 through Q-86, and with certain other markings on them.

Are you familiar with these bullets? And may I state for the record that the bullets I have just handed Mr. Cunningham derive from the same source.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am familiar with these bullets.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe these briefly?

Before I do that--Mr. Chairman, may I have these bullets admitted into evidence as a group, as Exhibit 592?

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 592, and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. At this time, I shall have to leave to attend a session of the Supreme Court.

Commissioner Ford, would you preside?

And, during the morning, Commissioner Dulles will be here, I am told, and if you leave, leave him in charge, will you, please?

Representative FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. Cunningham, thank you for your assistance. Glad to have seen you.

(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in Exhibit 592, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; all five of them are Western .38 Special cartridges, which are loaded with copper-coated lead bullets.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that of a total of--you have examined a total of 11 bullets, and three are Remington-Peter--well, at any rate, of the 11 they are divided 3 and 8 into Remington-Peter and Western .38 Special bullets?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, I hand you four cartridge cases in an envelope marked Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77. And I ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases.

Mr. Cunningham, before going on to the cartridge cases I just handed you, could you explain when you received the bullets which are comprised in the last three exhibits, and who you received them from, and how they were presented to you?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of the two cartridges that we received--the FBI received from the U.S. Secret Service. We received them on December 3, 1963.

That is correct. They were personally delivered to the laboratory by Special Agent Orrin Bartlett of the FBI, who is a liaison agent with the Secret Service. And he delivered them to us on December 3, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And did he identify them in any way to you when he delivered them? Did he describe their origin to you?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; he did not describe them to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. All right. Could you go on to the next group of five cartridges?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. I don't know the exhibit number.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 592.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 592 was received in the FBI Laboratory from the Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us who you received them from?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Dallas office of the FBI. I have no first-hand knowledge. I know that they were received from the Dallas Police Department--but that was due to what I have read in an FBI investigative report. The laboratory received them from the Dallas office on November 30.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you go on to the last group of four bullets?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518 was also received from the Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I would like to state that to the best of my knowledge the group of two and the group of four bullets, which together total six, were taken by the Dallas Police from the chamber of the revolver which is Exhibit 143, after the apprehension of Lee Harvey Oswald. They were then split into two groups of two and four as we have them now, two bullets being given to the Secret Service and eventually, as Mr. Cunningham relates, to the FBI, and four bullets going to the Dallas office of the FBI.

The group of five bullets was taken from a pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald, following his apprehension on November 22 and was kept separated from the remaining bullets, I believe, merely because they had been taken from a different source--that is, the pocket rather than the chamber of the revolver.

Mr. Cunningham, returning to Exhibit 145, do either of the two cartridges in Exhibit 145 bear any signs of having suffered an impact from the firing pin in the revolver, Exhibit 143?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An examination of these two cartridges, the primers of these two cartridges, reveals no marks that could be associated with the firing pin in Commission Exhibit 143, or any other weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any nicks on either of those cartridges?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. There is a small nick, an indentation, up near the edge of the primer in the Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could this nick have been caused by the firing pin?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There was no indication, from an examination, that that nick had been so caused by a firing pin.

First of all, it is in the wrong position, it is not in the center of the primer. And, also, a microscopic examination of that nick gave no indication that it was made by a firing pin.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you microscopically examine the bases of both cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, turning to Exhibit 518, consisting of four bullets, which, as I mentioned earlier, were, like the two bullets in Exhibit 145, taken from the chamber of the revolver, did you find any nicks in any of these bullets, the bases of any of these bullets?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Just by handling, there are bound to be small microscopic scratches of one kind or other. But there was no indication that any of the primers in these four cartridges had been struck by a firing pin.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were these also examined microscopically?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were, individually.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say there was no indication that they were struck by a firing pin, in your opinion, based on the construction of this weapon, if the firing pin had been drawn back to any extent and then released, would it have left a mark on one of the cartridges?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is--yes and no. It depends on how far it is drawn back. As soon as the hammer internally clears the rebound block, the hammer is then able to go forward and it probably would have fired. But up to that point, the hammer is held back from striking, it cannot--under normal conditions--be made to fire a cartridge.

However, it has been found with this particular weapon, a drop of approximately 3 feet on the hammer would fire a cartridge in the chamber.

Representative FORD. How far back does the hammer have to be drawn in order to fire?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That can be shown very easily by holding the cylinder. By holding the cylinder, that distance can be seen, which is approximately 3/8 to 1/2 inch.

Mr. EISENBERG. The witness is demonstrating.

The hammer, as he says, is going back about 3/8 of an inch.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once you allow the cylinder to rotate, then the rebound block is pushed out of the way, as you can see. Then you can cock the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate for us the sound which would be heard if you held the cylinder, pulled back, and then released the trigger?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. A snapping sound can definitely be heard.

Mr. EISENBERG. There is a very audible snapping sound. Would that snap--that amount of snap--leave a mark on the base of the cartridge case against which the firing pin----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Under these conditions it could not leave a mark, because the rebound block is in the way.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say rebound block, this is a block between the firing pin and the base of the cartridge case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it is the block that is forcing the trigger to go forward after it is pulled back. You see, your trigger will snap back. It is done by a spring in the block.

Mr. EISENBERG. To put it differently, this block would prevent the firing pin from emerging from its hole?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. That is exactly it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could the firing pin emerge from its hole without having traveled a considerable distance back? That is, to say, at what point does the rebound block release the hammer?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately--well, right there you can hear it. That is a good half inch.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull it back and then release that half an inch to disengage the rebound block?

(The witness did so.)

Mr. EISENBERG. If the firing pin hit the cartridge with that amount of force, do you believe the cartridge would be fired?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any possibility it would not be fired? Any substantial possibility?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It would still make a mark.

Mr. EISENBERG. It would make a mark, at any rate?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Let me clarify it. It still will not fire because the block will go forward.

Mr. EISENBERG. What will go forward?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, the trigger has to be pulled through the whole cycle in a Smith----

Mr. EISENBERG. In order to disengage----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Either that, or cocked before the block will be out of the way. When you pull the trigger and you don't release it or if it is in the cocked position and the trigger is pulled and not released, the hammer will stay forward. The firing pin will stay forward, so you can see it out through the breech face, as long as the trigger is pulled. Then when you release the trigger, the rebound block throws your trigger forward, so the weapon can be fired again.

Mr. EISENBERG. You are modifying what you had said previously?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you do that upon closer examination of the weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; it is on the basis of trying to describe an internal part without seeing it. If you would care to, I can show you what it looks like. I have a photograph of the National Rifle Association breakdown. It would be easier to explain if I could show you what I am referring to.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you, please?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Before you refer to this diagram, could I take a look at it?

Congressman Ford, could I have that diagram admitted into evidence?

Representative FORD. It will be admitted.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 593.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 593, and received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. Mr. Eisenberg, do you want the whole article?

Mr. EISENBERG. I think we might as well put the whole article in, yes.

(To Mr. Cunningham.) Perhaps it would be easiest if you came around here, since the diagram is a small one.

Now, the diagram which you are referring to is on page 61, the second page of this Exhibit 593?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Right.

As you can see, it is a diagram with the sideplate removed, which is this portion right here. It is the right-hand side of the weapon. (Witness pointing to revolver.) We are looking down on it with the sideplate on. These four screws hold on the sideplate.

When you pull the trigger of----

Mr. EISENBERG. The sideplate is marked 20 over here?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--No. 20 is the sideplate.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the diagram.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. 42 in the diagram is the trigger. There is a sear arrangement on the trigger, attached to the trigger. If you cock it, the sear arrangement will go up into a notch on the hammer right there, and hold it back--right in here.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is number----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You see, this is the sear.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you use numbers?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. No. 39 is the sear, and the sear is attached to the trigger, which is No. 42 in the diagram.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, we are referring to the first page of the exhibit.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. When the trigger is pulled on this particular weapon, or if the hammer is drawn back, there is a notch on the hammer which is engaged by the sear. When the hammer is back you have to pull the trigger to disengage the sear mechanism from the hammer. When you pull back and it is in the notch, that is known as single-action firing.

Also, No. 30 in the diagram is known as the rebound slide or block, and this rebound slide is positioned right behind the trigger on an internal part of the weapon. When the trigger is pulled, the recoil slide runs in a horizontal direction. As you can see by the larger drawing right here--it is a small camming action. It comes up, and is being pushed back.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the middle of the second page of the exhibit.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Now, do you see the rounded portion of the hammer right here, right in front of the notch?

Mr. EISENBERG. That is No.----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Number--on No. 42, the hammer, on the bottom, right next to the notch that the sear engages, is a rounded portion. That is--in actuality, this rebound slide acts as an internal safety, so the hammer cannot go forward unless the trigger is pulled or it is cocked, because it is in the way. It cannot go all the way forward, due to the fact that--right there you can see it very plainly in the schematic numbered drawing on page 2.

Mr. EISENBERG. The number you are pointing to is what?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is on the trigger, number----

Mr. EISENBERG. Forty-two?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Not trigger--the hammer, No. 34.

By the way, on the prior 42 I meant 34. I got the wrong number. I was referring to the right piece, but the wrong number.

But you can see this little--it is like a curved portion. It prevents the hammer from going any further forward. The firing pin will not come out of the hole in the breech face.

Now, as soon as you pull the hammer back, the rebound slide, No. 30, is out of the way.

Also, when you pull the weapon through double action, that slide pushes back, and your sear doesn't even touch the groove in the hammer, but it just keeps on going right on through. In other words, you are pulling the trigger strictly against the mainspring all the way. When it is on the notch, it is being held, and the only pressure needed, is to take off the sear.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, to focus this line of questioning, Officer McDonald, who has reported that he was in a struggle with Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22d, while Oswald was in possession of this revolver, has stated that--I am reading now from an affidavit, from a letter from Officer McDonald to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police of the Dallas Police Force, dated December 3, 1963.