Part 63

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, I find there are three shims here. You mentioned two. Would three be consistent with what you were told?

Mr. SIMMONS. I was told two. These were put in by a gunsmith in one of our machine shops--rather a machinist in one of our machine shops.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, I wonder whether you could take these shims back after I have marked them to find out whether the three had been placed?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. I am marking these 576, 577, and 578. They consist of three shims in three small envelopes.

(The items referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 576, 577, and 578, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you have a test run to determine the possibility of scoring hits with this weapon, Exhibit 139, on a given target at a given distance under rapid-fire conditions?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible.

I should make one comment here relative to the angular displacement of the targets. We did not reproduce these angles exactly from the map which we had been given because the conditions in the field were a little awkward for this. But the distance--the angular distance from the first target to the second was greater than from the second to the third, which would tend to correspond to a longer interval of time between the first and second impact than between the second and the third. The movement of the rifle was greater from the first to the second target than from the second to the third.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, were your marksmen instructed to aim at the three targets in consecutive order?

Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

Mr. SIMMONS. For our experiment, I do not see how a difference of a few feet would make any difference.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Simmons, did you take pictures or have pictures taken showing what that range looked like?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; I have copies of these pictures here. I show you three pictures--the first showing the window from which the weapon was fired in our experiments; the second showing the view of the three targets from the window; and the third showing a rifleman in position.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you take these pictures yourself?

Mr. SIMMONS. No; these pictures were taken by one of the cameramen from the development and proof services.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see the scenes represented in these pictures?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are these pictures accurate reproductions of these scenes?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the first, second, and third pictures described by Mr. Simmons admitted as exhibits. That will be 579 for the first, 580 for the second, and 581 for the third.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 579, 580, and 581 and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, the targets were--well, can you describe the targets for us?

Mr. SIMMONS. The targets are standard head-and-shoulders silhouettes, and they consist of approximately 2 square feet in area.

Mr. EISENBERG. How many marksmen were involved?

Mr. SIMMONS. We used three riflemen.

Mr. EISENBERG. And can you tell us what their background was?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. All three riflemen are rated as Master by the National Rifle Association. Two of them are civilian gunners in the Small Arms Division of our Development and Proof Services, and the third is presently in the Army, and he has considerable background as a rifleman, and also has a Master rating.

Mr. EISENBERG. Each fired one or more series of three rounds?

Mr. SIMMONS. Each fired two series of three rounds, using the telescopic sight. Then one of the firers repeated the exercise using the iron sight--because we had no indication whether the telescope had been used.

Mr. EISENBERG. So the total number of rounds fired was what?

Mr. SIMMONS. 21.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you bring with you targets or copies of the targets?

Mr. SIMMONS. I brought photos of the targets.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take these photographs, Mr. Simmons, or have them taken under your supervision?

Mr. SIMMONS. These photographs were taken by the photographic laboratory in our Ballistic Measurements Laboratory, which is one of the complex of laboratories within the Ballistic Research Laboratory.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you verify these photographs as being accurate reproductions of the targets?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as 582, 583 and 584?

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 582, 583, and 584 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, could you discuss the results of the tests you ran, by using these photographs?

Mr. SIMMONS. Exhibit 582 is the target which was emplaced at 175 feet. All firers hit the first target, and this was to be expected, because they had as much time as they desired to aim at the first target.

As you can see from the picture, the accuracy of the weapon is quite good.

Mr. McCLOY. That first target is what distance?

Mr. SIMMONS. 175 feet. And we had to make an assumption here about the point of aim. It is quite likely that in fact each man was aiming at a different portion of the target--there were no markings on the target visible to the firer.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did I understand you just told the firers to aim at the target without referring to----

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. There is an apparent crossline running darkly through that photograph.

Mr. SIMMONS. These lines were drawn in afterwards, in order for us to make some measurements from the actual impact point.

The target which was emplaced at 240 feet, as shown in Exhibit 583--we had rather an unusual coincidence with respect to this target. This involved the displacement of the weapon to a sufficient angle that the basic firing position of the man had to be changed. And because they knew time was very important, they made the movement very quickly. And for the first four attempts, the firers missed the second target. Of course, we made a rather, I guess, disadvantageous error in the test by pointing out that they had missed on the second target, and there was a conscious effort made on the additional rounds to hit the second target.

On the third target, the angle through which the weapon had to be moved to get to the third target from the second was relatively small, and there were only two rounds which did not hit the target at 270 feet. One of these rounds, by the way, was used in the sequence where the iron sight was employed.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, when you said that the firers had to make a large shift relatively in their firing position, and were in a hurry, is this your interpretation or is this based on discussions with them subsequently?

Mr. SIMMONS. This is based on discussions with the firers after the experiment.

Mr. EISENBERG. After these tests were finished, did you make a determination of the amount of error--average amount of error in the aim of these riflemen?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. By assuming that all riflemen had aimed at the intersection of the lines that we have drawn on these pictures, we calculated the total aiming--the aiming error associated with the three riflemen--this is one number to describe the accuracy of all three riflemen. And against the first target the accuracy observed was about .7 mils, in standard deviation. Against the second target, the accuracy was 1.4 mils. And against the third target, it was 1.2 mils.

Mr. EISENBERG. Again, could you convert those at a hundred yards to inches?

Mr. SIMMONS. 0.7 of a mil at 100 yards is approximately 2 inches. 1.4 mils is approximately 4 inches. And 1.2 mils is approximately 3-1/2 inches.

Mr. EISENBERG. In arriving at these figures, had you discounted the round-to-round dispersion as determined in the bench rest test?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. We have subtracted out the round-to-round dispersion.

Mr. EISENBERG. But the actual accuracy of the riflemen would have to include the round-to-round dispersion, would it not?

Mrs. SIMMONS. Yes; it would.

Mr. EISENBERG. Why did you then subtract the round-to-round dispersion figure, or discount it?

Mr. SIMMONS. We wanted to determine what the aiming error itself was associated with the rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us the times in which the various riflemen used to fire the three shots in each sequence?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. And the numbers which I will give you will be the average of two readings on stop watches.

Mr. EISENBERG. For each rifleman?

Mr. SIMMONS. For each exercise.

Mr. Hendrix fired twice. The time for the first exercise was 8.25 seconds; the time for the second exercise was 7.0 seconds.

Mr. Staley, on the first exercise, fired in 6-3/4 seconds; the second attempt he used 6.45 seconds.

Specialist Miller used 4.6 seconds on his first attempt, 5.15 seconds in his second attempt, and 4.45 seconds in his exercise using the iron sight.

Mr. EISENBERG. What was the accuracy of Specialist Miller?

Mr. SIMMONS. I do not have his accuracy separated from the group.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is it possible to separate the accuracy out?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; it is, by an additional calculation.

Mr. Miller succeeded in hitting the third target on both attempts with the telescope. He missed the second target on both attempts with the telescope, but he hit the second target with the iron sight. And he emplaced all three rounds on the target, the first target.

Mr. EISENBERG. How did he do with the iron sight on the third target?

Mr. SIMMONS. On the third target he missed the boards completely. And we have not checked this out. It appears that for the firing posture which Mr. Miller--Specialist Miller uses, the iron sight is not zeroed for him, since his impacts on the first and second targets were quite high, and against the third target we would assume that the projectile went over the top of the target, which extended only a few inches over the top of the silhouette.

Mr. EISENBERG. What position did the rifleman fire from, Mr. Simmons?

Mr. SIMMONS. The firers braced an elbow on the window sill and used pretty much a standard sitting position, using a stool.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had they had with the weapon, Exhibit 139, before they began firing?

Mr. SIMMONS. They had each attempted the exercise without the use of ammunition, and had worked the bolt as they tried the exercise. They had not pulled the trigger during the exercise, however, because we were a little concerned about breaking the firing pin.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate of how much time they used in this dry-run practice, each?

Mr. SIMMONS. They used no more than 2 or 3 minutes each.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did they make any comments concerning the weapon?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; there were several comments made--particularly with respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt. As a matter of fact, Mr. Staley had difficulty in opening the bolt in his first firing exercise. He thought it was completely up and it was not, and he had to retrace his steps as he attempted to open the bolt after the first round.

There was also comment made about the trigger pull, which is different as far as these firers are concerned. It is in effect a two-stage operation where the first--in the first stage the trigger is relatively free, and it suddenly required a greater pull to actually fire the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you prepare a table showing the probability of hit at a given target at given ranges by riflemen with given degrees of accuracy?

Mr. SIMMONS. Well, we prepared a table which showed what the probability of a hit would be on specific sizes of target as a function of aiming error, and using the appropriate round-to-round dispersion also in these calculations.

Mr. EISENBERG. What were the targets that you used in your calculations?

Mr. SIMMONS. We used two circular targets, one of 4 inches in radius and one of 9 inches in radius, to approximate the area of the head and the area of the shoulders, or the thorax, actually. And a significant point to these calculations to us is that against the larger target, if you fire with the 0.7 mil aiming error which was observed against the first target, the probability of hitting that target is 1, and it is 1 at all three ranges, out to 270 feet.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the meaning of the probability being 1?

Mr. SIMMONS. Well, the probability is effectively one. Actually the number is 0.99 and several more digits afterwards. It is rounded off to 1. Simply implying that the probability of a hit is very high with the small aiming errors and short range.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now of course this aiming error is derived from the three riflemen who you employed in the tests, is that correct?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you proceed to the other two?

Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 1.2 mil aiming error, again at the larger targets, the probability of hitting the target at 175 feet is 1; at 240 feet it is 0.96; and at 270 feet it is 0.92.

Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize the second two figures in terms of probability?

Mr. SIMMONS. These also are very high values.

Mr. EISENBERG. The mil figure was 1.2, was it?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include, did you say, both aiming error and round-to-round dispersion?

Mr. SIMMONS. The 1.2 is the aiming error. When we include the round-to-round dispersion, it becomes only 1.24 mils.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does the probability reflect the 1.2 or the 1.24 figure?

Mr. SIMMONS. It reflects the total error, which is 1.24.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the same on the first series of calculations you gave us?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you go on to the third?

Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 1.4 mil aiming error, and the round-to-round dispersion, giving a total error of 1.43 mils, the probability of hit at the 175 foot target is 0.99; at 240 feet it is 0.91; at 270 feet it is 0.85.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the figures for the smaller target?

Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 0.7 mil aiming error, the probability of a hit at 175 feet is 0.96; at 240 feet, 0.81; at 270 feet, 0.73.

For the 1.2 mil aiming error, the probability is 0.69 at 175 feet; 0.74 at 240 feet; 0.39 at 270 feet.

Using the----

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize those, or explain them in lay terms?

Mr. SIMMONS. Well, against a shorter target, the probability is still almost 0.7, which is a relatively high value. The effective-range increase is beginning to show, however, because at 270 feet the value of 0.4 tends to be small.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does 0.4 mean you have 4 chances in 10 of hitting?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Now, our assumption throughout all of this is that the actual target was probably not either a small--the small area, but tending to be a larger area, as indicated by the crosshairs in these targets which we placed at this point.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have given us probabilities of hit with three variations of aiming error. You have selected these three variations in what manner, Mr. Simmons?

Mr. SIMMONS. These were actually the three values which were demonstrated in the experiment.

Mr. EISENBERG. But each of those values is associated with one target?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. However, you have applied them to all three targets?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have a special reason for doing that?

Mr. SIMMONS. No. We are victims of habit, and we tend to provide such information in parametric form.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Simmons, of course the assassin's aiming error must be unknown. But do you have any opinion concerning the probable aiming error of an assassin using this weapon against the aiming error displayed by the three riflemen you employed?

Mr. SIMMONS. Well, it looks like to achieve hits as indicated, the accuracy, overall accuracy of the three rounds would have to be of the order of 1.2 mils. And this is really not a small number as far as marksmanship goes. There have been many exercises in which we have been involved where the aiming error turns out to be much smaller, smaller than this. And in match competition, of course, the numbers actually turn out to be--the total aiming error turns out to be about equal to the round-to-round dispersion.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you make the reference to many exercises, are you referring to exercises solely with skilled riflemen?

Mr. SIMMONS. If we have skilled riflemen, the values for aiming error tend to be of the order of 1 mil. As a matter of fact, to qualify as expert on Army rifle courses, about a 1 mil aiming error is required--a standard deviation of 1 mil.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is that with a rest or without a rest?

Mr. SIMMONS. This would be without a rest. This would be the actual aiming error from the fixed position, firing range.

Mr. EISENBERG. And is this with open or telescopic sights?

Mr. SIMMONS. This would be with the peepsight on the conventional rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you exercises which you feel would be applicable to the assassination--that is, exercises conducted with--under noncombat conditions, with a telescopic sight and a rest?

Mr. SIMMONS. The only experience that we have with the telescopic sight with which I am familiar is the exercise using this weapon. There have been experiments made using telescopic sights, but these are of limited interest militarily.

Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, what effect does the introduction of a rest and telescopic sight have on probable aiming error?

Mr. SIMMONS. From a position where the movement of the weapon is not great, and where the target is slowly moving, the fixed position on the telescope should enhance the probability of a hit.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to shoot in the range of 1.2-mil aiming error?

Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I think also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could this experience in operating the bolt be achieved in dry practice, Mr. Simmons?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; it could be, if sufficient practice were used. There is some indication of the magnitude of change with one of our shooters who in his second attempt fired three-tenths of a second less time than he did in the first.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, has data been compiled showing the effect of the time taken between shots on the accuracy of the shots?

Mr. SIMMONS. There have been experiments run where aiming error has been measured as a function of the time one has to aim.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do those experiments show that aiming error is directly proportionate to the length of time one has to aim?

Mr. SIMMONS. Not directly proportionate, but aiming error decreases as time increases. But once you get to the area of about 4 seconds in time, then there is very small decrease in aiming error for increase in time.

Mr. EISENBERG. Translating that to this weapon, does that mean that taking more than 8 seconds between three shots should not appreciably affect the degree of accuracy?

Mr. SIMMONS. The 8 seconds I was referring to is between shots.

Mr. EISENBERG. You said 4 seconds, I thought.

Mr. SIMMONS. I beg your pardon.

Mr. EISENBERG. And I was saying, if you took 4 seconds between the first and second, and 4 seconds between the second and third, for a total of 8 seconds, on the basis of this data would that mean after 8 seconds you would not be substantially increasing your accuracy by taking more time?

Mr. SIMMONS. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Approximately how many bullets did you fire in the course of your tests?

Mr. SIMMONS. We fired 47 bullets.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any misfires?

Mr. SIMMONS. None.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were you aware when you performed your tests of the conclusions of any other body concerning the accuracy of this weapon?

Mr. SIMMONS. No; we were not.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you aware of such conclusions at this point?

Mr. SIMMONS. No; I am not.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. You said that these riflemen, or one or two of them at least, had the rank of master. What is that?

Mr. SIMMONS. I again fall back on my comment earlier that I am not a shooter myself. A master is one of the ratings given to highly qualified riflemen by the National Rifle Association. These men have all participated in national match competitions in the National Rifle Association.

Mr. McCLOY. Is that a higher grade than sharpshooter in the Army?

Mr. SIMMONS. There is really no comparison between the rating of master in the NRA and the rating of sharpshooter in the Army.

Mr. EISENBERG. I am not sure whether or not you answered this question, but do you feel that if the target was moving, rather than having the rifleman move, there would have been a difference in aiming error, increased or decreased aiming error--if the target was moving 5 to 10 miles an hour?

Mr. SIMMONS. I think the movement of the target in this case would have practically no effect on the accuracy of fire, because from the map we are led to believe that the movement was primarily away from the firer, so that the back of the President was fully exposed to the rifleman at all times.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain your reference to a map? You have made several references to that.

Mr. SIMMONS. I refer to the survey plat which is dated December 5, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how were you supplied with that?

Mr. SIMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the employees in my office.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor of the area immediately adjoining the Texas School Book Depository. I would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis which Mr. Simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth of the measurements which are shown in here.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be received.

Mr. EISENBERG. That would be Commission 585.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 585 and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. I have no further questions.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there anything you would like to add to your testimony?

Mr. SIMMONS. I think not.

Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether we could have a copy of your table?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes.