Part 6

Mr. JENNER. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.

Mr. JENNER. But that is your best recollection that you are now testifying to?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said----

Mr. JENNER. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?

Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.

Mr. JENNER. Which made sense.

Mrs. PAINE. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Only the one?

Mrs. PAINE. Only the one.

Mr. JENNER. What was the date of this call?

Mrs. PAINE. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.

Mr. JENNER. What day of the week is October 14?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a Monday.

Mr. JENNER. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.

Mr. JENNER. In the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. In the early evening.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me to tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I go on?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. The next day----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was concerned.

Mrs. PAINE. That is all there was.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the conversation in the Roberts' home.

Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School Depository mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to possible places of employment?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of that.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.

Mr. JENNER. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it being mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of getting there.

Mr. JENNER. Unless he knew how to drive a car?

Mrs. PAINE. Unless he knew how to drive a car.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment to operate it?

Mrs. PAINE. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson on the 13th of October.

Mr. JENNER. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. Especially that week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the 14th?

Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? Would you turn to that page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have it here.

Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository on that page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment there.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas School Book Depository on that date?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Depository Building where----

Mrs. PAINE. On Elm Street.

Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository.

I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't.

The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had been fired from such a building.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed?

Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse.

Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I have already referred----

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No.----

Mrs. PAINE. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas," does not give a time of day.

Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. October 14, Monday.

Mr. JENNER. This is the letter to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. But I don't normally write letters any time except when the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the evening.

If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that he was looking and was discouraged.

I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would get a job at the School Book Depository.

I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had been accepted and said he would start work the next day.

Mr. JENNER. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual practice of calling in the early evening.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll call?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What is its cost, 10 cents?

Mrs. PAINE. I expect so.

Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What happened?

Mrs. PAINE. He asked for Marina.

Mr. JENNER. He said nothing to you about his success?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself?

Mrs. PAINE. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You called her to the phone.

Did you hear her end of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What took place by way of of conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We must thank Mrs. Randle."

Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not know.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the YMCA?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come by that information?

Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.

Mr. JENNER. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the circumstances, please?

Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was at a----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. He rarely talked with me when he was out.

Mr. JENNER. This would be the weekend of what?

Mrs. PAINE. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, the same weekend.

Mr. JENNER. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the 7th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Fourth of October.

Mr. JENNER. He departed on the 7th.

Mrs. PAINE. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was given to you.

Mrs. PAINE. He said this is the telephone number.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.

Mr. JENNER. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?

Mrs. PAINE. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in other words.

Mr. JENNER. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?

Mrs. PAINE. As due on the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina have a different notion?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought it might be due around the 8th.

Mr. JENNER. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the baby actually arrive?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number--did you record it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In what?

Mrs. PAINE. In ink in my telephone book.

Mr. JENNER. Your telephone and address book?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in which you have made that recording?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the page you identified yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.

Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. The number was WH 2-1985.

Mr. JENNER. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.

Mr. JENNER. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the apartment or room was?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. He did not give you an address?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All he gave you was the telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him by?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not make such a limitation.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that the number was given to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct about this?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.

Mr. JENNER. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under which you received a second number?

Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.

Mr. JENNER. He called you or related this to you in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your home and gave you the second number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that he gave it to you in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.

Mr. JENNER. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School Book Depository, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. I would rationalize that I have judged so.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even the area in Dallas where his second room was located?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No address?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as to when you might call him?

Mrs. PAINE. No such reservation.

Mr. JENNER. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by other than his surname by which you knew him?

Mrs. PAINE. No such indication.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the baby was born on the----

Mrs. PAINE. Twentieth.

Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The 20th is--when did you take her to the hospital?

Mrs. PAINE. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. JENNER. What day?

Mrs. PAINE. Sunday, the 20th of October.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one of his regular visits?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The first one since he had employment.

Representative FORD. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We will get to it.

Mr. JENNER. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the particular circumstances of the call.

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back--no; that is not right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.

Mr. JENNER. You called him in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I am a little confused.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I should get back to my children.

Mr. JENNER. This was Sunday night.

Mrs. PAINE. Sunday night.

He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went to bed and told him in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. You did not awaken him then?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. And the morning was Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I assume you told him that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he go to work that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Irving that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that evening.

Mr. JENNER. How did he--was he brought back to Irving that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I imagine Wesley brought him.

Mr. JENNER. At least you did not?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and encouraged him to go.

Mr. JENNER. Why did he think he ought not to go?

Mrs. PAINE. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.

Mr. JENNER. In any event he did go?

Mrs. PAINE. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not permitted to get in.

Mr. JENNER. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned home with him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did he return to work the next morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from him?

Mrs. PAINE. The following Friday he came out again.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably went with Wesley also.

Mr. JENNER. And he came out the following weekend, did he?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was his birthday.

Mr. JENNER. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?

Mrs. PAINE. We had a cake; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was that weekend uneventful?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, Marina was already home.

Mr. JENNER. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?

Mrs. PAINE. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right--skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.

Mr. JENNER. When did he return, on Friday of that week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.

Mr. JENNER. Did he call in each day in the interim?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And talk to Marina and to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Inquire about the baby?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You overheard some of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his position at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend when he came home?

Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall anything being said.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is Friday to Sunday, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Was he home on that weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was.

Mr. JENNER. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?

Mr. JENNER. Which weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best recollection anyway.

Mr. JENNER. All right. But other than that possibility, there was nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application bureau, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of Saturday--this "Dear Sirs" letter.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his reporting his visit to Mexico.

Mrs. PAINE. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not fully credit.

Mr. JENNER. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of November 15 through 17?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina asked him not to.

Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination day?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Why did she ask him not to?

Mrs. PAINE. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more comfortable if he didn't come out.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not suggested that to her.

Mr. JENNER. Did you overhear her tell him that?

Mrs. PAINE. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go himself to the driver training station.

Mr. JENNER. You have described that event for us heretofore this afternoon.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.

Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a little recess now.

(Short recess.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or question and answer?

(The reporter read the question and answer.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't think I can fix it more exactly.