Part 56

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a cartridge in an envelope, marked Commission Exhibit 141. Are you familiar with this cartridge?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received this cartridge for examination in the FBI laboratory, submitted to me as a cartridge removed from the rifle at the time it was recovered.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that cartridge in terms of name, manufacturer, and country of origin?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co., at East Alton, Ill.

It is loaded with a full metal-jacketed bullet of the military type. Cartridges of this type which I have examined, having this type of bullet, have bullets weighing 160 to 161 grains.

Mr. McCLOY. When you mentioned that cartridge as being a Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, could that be fired, for example, in a Mannlicher 6.5 Schoenauer?

Mr. FRAZIER. I am not familiar with that.

Mr. McCLOY. That is the normal sporting rifle--that Mannlicher Schoenauer is the normal 6.5 Austrian sporting rifle that you buy. I just wondered if it was the same cartridge.

Mr. FRAZIER. I am sorry. I don't know whether there is a distinction between these two or not.

Mr. McCLOY. I happen to have one of those. And I was just wondering if it is the same cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a series of three cartridge cases. I ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received these cartridge cases on two different occasions for examination in the laboratory, and comparison with the rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do these cases have your mark on them?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they do. Each is marked with my initials and the inscription for identification purposes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce these cartridge cases into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544 and 545.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 543, 544, and 545 and received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Will you introduce evidence to show where they came from?

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, sir, the record will show at the conclusion of the hearings where they came from. This witness is able to identify them only as to his examination.

Mr. McCLOY. I understand that. I understand that witness cannot identify them. But I simply asked for the record whether you have evidence to show where they did come from.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found near the southeast corner window--that is, the easternmost window on the southern face of the sixth floor of that building.

Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge--from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?

Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters. The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.

Mr. McCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 millimeters?

Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6--6.65 millimeters.

The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.

On the base of the bullet is a crimp ring, or a cannelure, which is located two-tenths of an inch from the base up the bullet and which is 6/100ths of an inch in width--that is, it is a band around the bullet 6/100ths of an inch wide.

I believe that is a description of the bullet.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 with the type of ammunition you have been looking at to determine the muzzle velocity of that type of ammunition in this weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The tests were run to determine the muzzle velocity of this rifle, using this ammunition, at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., on December 2, 1963, using two different lots of ammunition--Lot No. 6,000 and Lot No. 6,003.

I might point out that there were four lots of ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co., only two of which are available.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give the results?

Mr. FRAZIER. Possibly I can give the results shot by shot, so the record will show each one, and then give an average for them.

Mr. EISENBERG. Fine.

Mr. FRAZIER. The first shot, Lot 6,000, the velocity was 2199.7 feet per second.

Shot No. 2, Lot 6,000, velocity 2,180.3 feet per second.

The third shot, velocity--same lot--velocity 2,178.9 feet per second.

The third shot, velocity--and this is Lot No. 6,003--velocity was 2,184.8 feet per second.

The fourth shot, Lot No. 6,003, was 2,137.6 feet per second.

Fifth shot, Lot No. 6,000, 2,162.7 feet per second.

The sixth shot, Lot 6,003, 2,134.8 feet per second.

An average of all shots of 2,165 feet per second.

Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize the differences between the muzzle velocities of the various rounds in terms of whether that difference was a large or small difference?

Mr. FRAZIER. This is a difference well within the manufacturer's accepted standards of velocity variations. They permit in their standard ammunition manual, which is a guide to the entire industry in the United States, a 40-foot-per-second, plus or minus, variation shot to shot in the same ammunition.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you calculated the muzzle energy of this 6.5 millimeter ammunition in this weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was furnished by letter to the Commission. Yes, sir--the muzzle energy was calculated on the basis of the average velocity of 2,165 feet per second as 1,676 foot-pounds.

Mr. EISENBERG. This is a calculation rather than a measurement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Necessarily a calculation, because it is merely a term used to compare one bullet against another rather than for any practical purposes because--because of the bullet's extremely light weight.

The bullet's velocity and weight, and gravity enter into the determination of its energy in foot-pounds.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano with which we are dealing an accurate type of ammunition as opposed to other types of military ammunition--as compared, I should say, with other types of military ammunition?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say it is also accurate. As other types of ammunition the 6.5 millimeter cartridge or bullet is a very accurate bullet, and ammunition of this type as manufactured in the United States would give fairly reasonable accuracy. Other military cartridges may or may not give accurate results.

But the cartridge inherently is an accurate cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this type of cartridge readily available for purchase?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. Information we have indicates that 2 million rounds of this ammunition was reimported into this country and placed on sale.

Mr. EISENBERG. Commission Exhibit No. 141, the cartridge found in the chamber--I should say, was found in the chamber. Do you draw any inference from the fact that the cartridge was found in the chamber? In your experience, does one automatically reload whether or not one intends to fire, or is there a special significance in the fact that the cartridge had been chambered?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say no, there would be no inference which I could draw based on human behavior as to why someone would or would not reload a cartridge. Normally, if you were--in my experience--shooting at some object, and it was no longer necessary to shoot, you would not reload.

You may or may not reload. It would be a normal thing to automatically reload. But not necessarily in every instance.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any information of your own knowledge as to whether this cartridge was in the chamber or not at the time the rifle was found?

Mr. FRAZIER. Only as furnished to me--it was submitted as having been removed from the rifle by the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. McCLOY. As having been removed from the chamber?

Mr. FRAZIER. From the chamber of the rifle.

Mr. McCLOY. But you did not remove it yourself?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make a test to determine the pattern of the cartridge-case ejection of Commission Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I made two studies in connection with the ejection pattern--one to determine distance and one to determine the angle at which the cartridge cases leave the ejection port.

Mr. EISENBERG. And did you summarize your examination by diagrams?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us those diagrams?

Mr. FRAZIER. In this diagram----

Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me just a second, Mr. Frazier.

Were these diagrams prepared by you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were--not the actual physical diagrams, but the figures on the diagrams were furnished by me to the draftsman.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these diagrams as Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 547?

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 547, and were received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the results of your tests by using these diagrams, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

In this test, Commission Exhibit 546, the diagram illustrates the positions on the floor at which cartridge cases landed after being extracted and ejected from the rifle, Commission's Exhibit 139. In the top portion of Exhibit 546, the barrel was held depressed at a 45-degree angle, and in the lower half of the exhibit it shows the pattern with the barrel held in a horizontal position. Each spot marked with a figure on the diagram shows where one cartridge case landed in both instances, and each one is marked with the distance and the angle to which the cartridge case was ejected.

With the barrel held in the depressed condition, all of the cartridge cases landed within an 85-inch circle located 80 degrees to the right front of the rifle. That may be confusing. It was 80 degrees to the right from the line of sight of the rifle and at a distance of 86 inches from the ejection port.

Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle.

The same situation is true of the test made with the muzzle in the horizontal condition.

All of the cartridge cases landed within a 47-inch circle, which was located at right angles to the ejection port, or 90 degrees from the line of sight, and at a distance 80 inches from the ejection port.

In both of these tests, the ejection port of the weapon was held 32 inches above the floor.

In the second test performed, Commission Exhibit 547, the test was made to ascertain how high above the ejection port a cartridge case would fly as it was being ejected.

After ejecting numerous cartridge cases from the weapon with the barrel held in a depressed condition, it was found that the cartridge cases did not exceed two inches above the level of the ejection port. And with the muzzle held horizontally, it did not exceed 12 inches above the level of the ejection port.

Mr. EISENBERG. In making these tests, was the bolt pulled with a normal degree of rifle pull?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was pulled with various pulls, to determine what the effect would be with different speeds of the bolt.

Mr. EISENBERG. How did you select the distance above the floor at which the rifle was fired?

Mr. FRAZIER. We selected a distance which we thought might be typical of a condition which would give an overall picture of the ejection pattern, and not from any basis of previous information as to possibly how the weapon had been fired previously. Thirty-two inches happened to be approximately table height, so that we could control the height of the weapon readily.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you three Commission Exhibits, 510, 511, and 512, which are photographs which have been identified as giving the location of the cartridges--cartridge cases--Nos. 543, 544, and 545, on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. I ask you to examine these pictures, and to determine whether if the rifle had been fired from the window shown in these pictures, the location of the cartridge cases is consistent with the results of the tests you ran to determine the ejection patterns.

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say yes; it is consistent--although the cartridge cases are--two of them--against the wall. There is a stack of boxes fairly near the wall, and the position of the cartridge cases could very well have been affected by the boxes. That is, they could strike the box and bounce for several feet, and they could have bounced back and forth in this small area here and come to rest in the areas shown in the photographs.

Mr. EISENBERG. In making your tests, did you notice much ricochet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; considerable. Each time a cartridge case hit the floor, it would bounce anywhere from 8 inches to 10 to 15 feet.

Mr. McCLOY. Make a lot of noise?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; a clatter.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 to determine its accuracy under rapid-fire conditions?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these tests?

Mr. FRAZIER. A series of three tests were made. When we first received the rifle, there was not an opportunity to test it at long range, so we tested it at short range. After we had obtained sample bullets and cartridge cases from it, we fired accuracy and speed tests with it. Three examiners did the firing, all three being present at the same time.

The first tests were made at 15 yards, and shooting at a silhouette target.

Mr. EISENBERG. A silhouette of a man?

Mr. FRAZIER. A paper silhouette target of a man; yes.

Possibly you may wish to mark these, to refer to them.

Mr. EISENBERG. These targets were made by you or in your presence?

Mr. FRAZIER. These are actually copies of the actual targets. I have the actual targets here, if you would rather use those. However, the markings show better on the copies than they do on the actual targets.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I request permission to introduce the copies for the reasons given, as Commission Exhibits 548 and 549.

Mr. McCLOY. You have made these copies, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I had them made. They are actual xerox copies of the original targets, which are black, and do not show the markings placed around the holes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record.

Mr. Frazier, you have the original targets that were used in this experiment.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you one of the three that fired?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you identify your target as distinguished from the other two?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have the target that you fired?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fired--yes, I do. However, another examiner also fired at this same target.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you made a copy of that--or did you cause a copy of that target to be made?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you have that with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I do.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you marked it yet?

Mr. EISENBERG. No. That would be 548.

Mr. McCLOY. Suppose you identify that copy.

Mr. EISENBERG. This copy that you are presenting to us has initials at the bottom "CC-R-CK"?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the numbers and letters D-2 on the right-hand margin?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that has been copied under your supervision?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. That can be admitted as Commission Exhibit 548.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 548, and received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Now, is Commission Exhibit 548 an accurate copy of the target which you have--that you fired, and which you presented?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you also have a copy here which has the name on it Killion, and similar initials, letters, and numbers to the other target. Is this an accurate copy which you had prepared?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was the target fired by Charles Killion in my presence.

Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 549?

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 549, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. This test was performed at 15 yards, did you say, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. And this series of shots we fired to determine actually the speed at which the rifle could be fired, not being overly familiar with this particular firearm, and also to determine the accuracy of the weapon under those conditions.

Mr. EISENBERG. And could you give us the names of the three agents who participated?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Charles Killion, Cortlandt Cunningham, and myself.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the date?

Mr. FRAZIER. November 27, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. How many shots did each agent fire?

Mr. FRAZIER. Killion fired three, Cunningham fired three, and I fired three.

Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the times within which each agent fired the three shots?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Killion fired his three shots in nine seconds, and they are shown--the three shots are interlocking, shown on Commission Exhibit No. 549.

Cunningham fired three shots--I know the approximate number of seconds was seven.

Cunningham's time was approximately seven seconds.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you at a later date confirm the exact time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you will do that by letter to the Commission, or if you happen to come back by oral testimony?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And your time, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. For this series, was six seconds, for my three shots, which also were on the target at which Mr. Cunningham fired, which is Exhibit 548.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you characterize the dispersion of the shots on the two targets which you have been showing us, 548 and 549?

Mr. FRAZIER. The bullets landed approximately--in Killion's target, No. 549, approximately 2-1/2 inches high, and 1 inch to the right, in the area about the size of a dime, interlocking in the paper, all three shots.

On Commission Exhibit 548, Cunningham fired three shots. These shots were interlocking, or within an eighth of an inch of each other, and were located approximately 4 inches high and 1 inch to the right of the aiming point. The three shots which I fired were--landed in a three-quarter inch circle, two of them interlocking with Cunningham's shots, 4 inches high, and approximately 1 inch to the right of the aiming point.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the second series of tests?

Mr. FRAZIER. The second test which was performed was two series of three shots at 25 yards, instead of 15 yards. I fired both of these tests, firing them at a cardboard target, in an effort to determine how fast the weapon could be fired primarily, with secondary purpose accuracy.

We did not attempt--I did not attempt to maintain in that test an accurate rate of fire.

This is the actual target which I fired.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that target has all six holes in it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir--two series of three holes, the first three holes being marked with the No. 1, and the second series being marked No. 2.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like this introduced as 550.

Mr. McCLOY. That will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 550, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe for the record the dispersion on the two series?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The first series of three shots were approximately--from 4 to 5 inches high and from 1 to 2 inches to the right of the aiming point, and landed within a 2-inch circle. These three shots were fired in 4.8 seconds. The second series of shots landed--one was about 1 inch high, and the other two about 4 or 5 inches high, and the maximum spread was 5 inches.

That series was fired in 4.6 seconds.

Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the date?

Mr. FRAZIER. That also was on the 27th of November.

Mr. EISENBERG. Same date as the first tests?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you performed one more test, I believe?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. We fired additional targets at 100 yards on the range at Quantico, Va., firing groups of three shots. And I have the four targets we fired here.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted as 551, 552, 553, and 554.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 551 through 554, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Who fired these shots, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fired them.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize the dispersion on each of the four targets?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

On Commission Exhibit 551 the three shots landed approximately 5 inches high and within a 3-1/2-inch circle, almost on a line horizontally across the target. This target and the other targets were fired on March 16, 1964 at Quantico, Va. These three shots were fired in 5.9 seconds.

The second target fired is Commission Exhibit 552, consisting of three shots fired in 6.2 seconds, which landed in approximately a 4-1/2 to 5-inch circle located 4 inches high and 3 or 4 inches to the right of the aiming point.

Commission Exhibit No. 553 is the third target fired, consisting of three shots which landed in a 3-inch circle located about 2-1/2 inches high and 2 inches to the right of the aiming point.

These three shots were fired in 5.6 seconds.

And Commission Exhibit No. 554, consisting of three shots fired in 6.5 seconds, which landed approximately 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right of the aiming point, all within a 3-1/2-inch circle.

Mr. McCLOY. The first one is not exactly 5 inches to the right, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. The center of the circle in which they all landed would be about 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you tell us why, in your opinion, all the shots, virtually all the shots, are grouped high and to the right of the aiming point?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When we attempted to sight in this rifle at Quantico, we found that the elevation adjustment in the telescopic sight was not sufficient to bring the point of impact to the aiming point. In attempting to adjust and sight-in the rifle, every time we changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic sight in one direction it also affected the movement of the impact or the point of impact in the other direction. That is, if we moved the crosshairs in the telescope to the left it would also affect the elevation setting of the telescope. And when we had sighted-in the rifle approximately, we fired several shots and found that the shots were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away from the point of impact. This was apparently due to the construction of the telescope, which apparently did not stabilize itself--that is, the spring mounting in the crosshair ring did not stabilize until we had fired five or six shots.