Part 55

Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the equivalent of 6.5 mm.

Mr. EISENBERG. And can you explain what the caliber is a measure of?

Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber is the measure of the distance across the raised portions or the lands in the barrel. The groove diameter, or the spirals cut in the barrel to form the rifling, will be slightly larger--in this case between 7/1000ths and 8/1000ths of an inch larger than the actual bore diameter.

The caliber is normally determined by the bore diameter.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you made the identification of this rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. I identified it pictorially by comparing it with pictures in reference books. And the actual identification was of the manufacturer's name appearing on the barrel and serial number, which indicated it was an Italian military rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you independently determine the caliber of the rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you did that?

Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber and the caliber type may be confusing here.

The caliber, being the diameter of the barrel, is determined in two ways--one, by comparing the barrel with 6.5mm. Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition, which we also chambered in the weapon and determined that it actually fit the weapon. And, secondly, we measured the width of the barrel with, a micrometer. And in that connection, I would like to point out that we made a sulphur cast of the muzzle of the weapon which permitted us to use a micrometer to determine the land width and the groove width in the barrel.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have that sulphur cast?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I do.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that was made by you or under your supervision?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it was made by me.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be admitted as Commission Exhibit No. 540.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 540, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why this Exhibit 139 might be thought to be a 7.35-or 7.65-caliber rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. From outward appearances, it could be a 7.35-mm. rifle, because, basically, that is what it is. But its mechanism has been rebarreled with a 6.5-mm. barrel. Photographs of the weapons are similar, unless you make a very particular study of the photographs of the original model 38 Italian military rifle, which is 7.35 mm.

Early in the Second World War, however, the Italian Government barreled many of these rifles with a 6.5-mm. barrel, since they had a quantity of that ammunition on hand. I presume that would be the most logical way of confusing this weapon with one of a larger caliber.

Mr. EISENBERG. And is the 6.5-caliber weapon distinguished from the 7.35-caliber weapon by name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is; it is by the model number. The model 91/38 designates the 6.5-mm. rifle, whereas the model 38 designates the 7.35.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of the various markings on the rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have those with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Actually, I think we forwarded those photographs to the Commission.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are these the photographs that you took, or had taken?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Has the Federal Bureau of Investigation been supplied with information concerning the meanings and significances of these various markings?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state the source of that information?

Mr. FRAZIER. This information came to us by mail as a result of an inquiry of the Italian Armed Forces Intelligence Service, abbreviated SIFAR, by letter dated March 26, 1964, through the FBI representative in Rome, Italy.

This information is classified as secret by the Italian Government, who have advised that the material may be released to the Commission. However, they desire the retention of the information in a secret category.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this essential to the proof?

If it is not, I think we would rather not have it, because the fewer things we have to keep in secret, the better the situation is for us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record.

Based on your experience with firearms, is the placement of a specific serial number on a weapon generally confined to one weapon of a given type?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. Particularly--may I refer to foreign weapons particularly?

The serial number consists of a series of numbers which normally will be repeated. However, a prefix is placed before the number, which actually must be part of the serial number, consisting of a letter.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you been able to confirm that the serial number on this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is.

Mr. EISENBERG. All right.

Now, without reference to any classified information, could you briefly describe the markings shown on these photographs?

Mr. FRAZIER. The first photograph is an overall photograph of the rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me.

These photographs--when you say "first photograph"--these photographs are marked No. 1, No. 2, et cetera, on the back.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are.

Photograph No. 1 is an overall photograph of the rifle.

Photograph No. 2 is made of the top of the barrel, showing the serial number C2766.

Photograph No. 3 is also of the top of the rifle, showing a portion of the inscription on the telescopic sight, and the figures 1940, which is the manufacturer's date, the words "Made Italy" and a figure in the form of a crown, under that the letters "R-E," and then a portion of the word "Terni."

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the significance of "Terni?"

Mr. FRAZIER. Terni is the location for an Italian ordnance plant in Italy where rifles are made, and it is apparent that this weapon was made in Terni, because it is stamped with that name.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the significance of that crown?

Mr. FRAZIER. I think that would be just an Italian identification mark or proof mark.

Mr. EISENBERG. And are the words "Made Italy" likely to have been put on the weapon at the time of manufacture or subsequently?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the words "Made Italy" would be stamped on the weapon by a purchaser or an individual desiring to send the weapon to another country, to establish actually its origin.

Photograph No. 4 is again of the top of the weapon showing the same information--1940, "Made Italy," the crown, the place it was made, and the inscription "Caliber 6.5" across the top of the rear sight.

Photograph No. 5 shows a small circle which appears on the forward end of the receiver, or that portion into which the barrel is screwed, with the words "TNI" in the circle, and over these letters is again a small crown. This could be a proof mark or an inspector's stamp.

Photograph No. 6 is of an inscription on the side of the rear sight which has the appearance of the letter "i," or the letter "l," followed by a capital letter "A," and the capital letter "G," with the numbers "47," and "2," stamped underneath them. I do not know what the significance of that is. It could be, again, an inspector's stamp or a proof mark of some type.

Photograph No. 7 is made of the cocking piece on the end of the bolt, which gives the word "Rocca." This apparently would be the name of the manufacturer of that part of the rifle.

Photograph No. 8 is an inscription "PG" on the top of the bolt of the weapon. This inscription--I do not know of my own knowledge what that is--but it could be the mark of a manufacturer or a proof mark or an inspector's mark made at the time the handle was made to be welded to the bolt.

Photograph No. 9 was taken of the bottom of the receiver of the weapon, with the stock removed. It shows the Number "40," which could refer again to the year of manufacture, 1940, on the receiver, and at the rear of the photograph a small lettered inscription referring again to an inspector stamp, a proof stamp, of some nature. The identity of this, I do not know.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these photographs be admitted as a group under the number 541.

The CHAIRMAN. You are going to put all of them in under one number?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. They have the subnumbers on the back, which will differentiate them.

The CHAIRMAN. They will be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 541, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why someone might call Exhibit 139 a German-made Mauser rifle or a Mauser bolt-action rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. The Mauser was one of the earliest, if not the earliest, and the basic bolt-action rifle, from which many others were copied. And since this uses the same type of bolt system, it may have been referred to as a Mauser for that reason.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does this weapon show--how much use does this weapon show?

Mr. FRAZIER. The stock is worn, scratched. The bolt is relatively smooth, as if it had been operated several times. I cannot actually say how much use the weapon has had. The barrel is--was not, when we first got it, in excellent condition. It was, I would say, in fair condition. In other words, it showed the effects of wear and corrosion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon----

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last.

Mr. FRAZIER. It showed the effects of wear and corrosion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon used when it is sold into the United States?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is a surplus type of weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that it is impossible to attribute any given amount of wear to the last user?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is impossible.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you measured the dimensions of this rifle assembled, and disassembled?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us that information?

Mr. FRAZIER. The overall length is 40.2 inches. It weighs 8 pounds even.

Mr. McCLOY. With the scope?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, with the scope.

The CHAIRMAN. And the sling?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is with the sling, yes, sir. The sling weighs 4-3/4 ounces. The stock length is 34.8 inches, which is the wooden portion from end to end with the butt plate attached. The barrel and action from the muzzle to the rear of the tang, which is this portion at the rearmost portion of the metal, is 28.9 inches. The barrel only is 21.18 inches.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say, "this portion," Mr. Frazier, I don't think that is coming down clear in the record. I wonder whether you could rephrase that so as to describe the part of the barrel or part of the stock to which you are pointing when you say "tang."

Mr. FRAZIER. The tang is the rear of the receiver of the weapon into which the rear mounting screw is screwed to hold the rearmost part of the metal action of the weapon into the wooden stock. From the end of that portion to the muzzle of the weapon is 28.9 inches.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the length of the longest component when the rifle is dissembled, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. 34.8 inches, which is the length of the stock, the wooden portion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us the telescopic sight on the rifle in terms of----

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to the sight, can I ask a question?

Mr. EISENBERG. Surely.

Mr. McCLOY. How soon after the assassination did you examine this rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. We received the rifle the following morning.

Mr. McCLOY. Received it in Washington?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you immediately made your examination of it then?

Mr. FRAZIER. We made an examination of it at that time, and kept it temporarily in the laboratory.

It was then returned to the Dallas Police Department, returned again to the laboratory--the second time on November 27th, and has been either in the laboratory's possession or the Commission's possession since then.

Mr. McCLOY. When you examined the rifle the first time, you said that it showed signs of some corrosion and wear?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it what you would call pitted, were the lands in good shape?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the lands and the grooves were worn, the corners were worn, and the interior of the surface was roughened from corrosion or wear.

Mr. McCLOY. Was there metal fouling in the barrel?

Mr. FRAZIER. I did not examine it for that.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you say roughly how many rounds you think had been fired since it left the factory, with the condition of the barrel as you found it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I could not, because the number of rounds is not an indication of the condition of the barrel, since if a barrel is allowed to rust, one round will remove that rust and wear the barrel to the same extent as 10 or 15 or 50 rounds just fired through a clean barrel.

Mr. McCLOY. Thank you.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the telescopic sight on the rifle? Magnification, country of origin?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is a four-power telescopic sight employing crosshairs in it as a sighting device, in the interior of the scope.

It is stamped "Optics Ordnance Incorporated, Hollywood California," and under that is the inscription "Made in Japan." It is a very inexpensive Japanese telescopic sight.

The mount attached to it was also made in Japan.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you removed the mount?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. How many holes did you find drilled into the receiver?

Mr. FRAZIER. There are two holes in the receiver.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you form an opinion as to whether these were original holes or whether new holes--new and larger holes had been formed over the original holes?

Mr. FRAZIER. Normally, the receiver would have no holes at all, and would have to be drilled and tapped for the screws. In the sight itself there normally are three holes, two of which have been enlarged to accommodate the two mounting screws presently holding the mount to the rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think, based on your experience with types of screws used in mounts, that these were the original screws and the original holes for the screws?

Mr. FRAZIER. I could not say--I could not answer that specifically. However, they appear to be the same type of screw as is present on the rest of the mount--although they are somewhat larger in size than the remaining hole which is present in the lower portion of the mount.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I now hand you a rifle which is marked C-250. Are you familiar with this rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe it briefly?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is an identical rifle physically to the rifle Commission's Exhibit 139, in that it is the same caliber, 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano Italian Military rifle, Model 91/38.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine by use of this rifle whether the scope was mounted on Exhibit 139 by the firm which is thought to have sold Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Would you repeat that, please?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes.

Did you make an attempt to determine, by use of this C-250, whether the firm which had sold Exhibit 139 had mounted the scope on Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe how you made that attempt?

Mr. FRAZIER. We contacted the firm, Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and asked them concerning this matter to provide us with a similar rifle mounted in the way in which they normally mount scopes of this type on these rifles, and forward the rifle to us for examination.

In this connection, we did inform them that the scope should be in approximately this position on the frame of the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. When you say "this position," so that the record is clear could you----

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; in the position in which it now is, approximately three-eighths of an inch to the rear of the receiver ring.

Mr. EISENBERG. On the----

Mr. FRAZIER. On the C-250 rifle.

When we received the rifle C-250, we examined the mount and found that two of the holes had been enlarged, and that screws had been placed through them and threaded into the receiver of the C-250 rifle.

The third hole in the mount had not been used.

We also found that an identical scope to the one on the Commission's rifle 139 was present on the C-250 rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were the screws used in mounting the C-250 rifle--in mounting the scope on the C-250 rifle--type of screws as those used in mounting the scope on Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the holes were the same dimensions?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are. And the threads in the holes are the same.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like C-250 admitted into evidence as Commission Exhibit 542.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 542, and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. At this time I will interrupt to say I must now leave to attend a session of the Supreme Court, and I will return at the conclusion of the session.

In the meantime, Mr. McCloy will preside at the Commission hearing, and in the event he should be required to leave, Mr. McCloy, whatever Commissioner is here will conduct the examination in his absence.

(At this point, Chairman Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you examined the sling on Commission Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you feel that this is--that this sling was originally manufactured as a rifle sling?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not in any way similar to a normal sling for a rifle. It appears to be a sling from some carrying case, camera bag, musical-instrument strap, or something of that nature.

We have made attempts to identify it, with no success.

Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from the addition of this sling and mounting of the telescopic sight, have any modifications been made in the C-139 rifle--in the Commission Exhibit 139 rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You would suggest, I gather, Mr. Frazier, that this is a homemade sling?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it appears to have been cut to length by inserting this strap, or this sling, on the rifle, and then trimming off the excess ends of the two straps to fit.

Mr. McCLOY. How would that broad patch on the sling--how would that be used, in your judgment, in firing the rifle? Would it be wrapped around the base of your----

Mr. FRAZIER. I find it very difficult to use the rifle with a sling at all. The sling is too short, actually, to do more than put your arm through it.

Mr. McCLOY. You get quite a leverage with that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, you do, in one direction. But it is rather awkward to wrap the forward hand into the sling in the normal fashion.

Mr. McCLOY. This gives a pretty tight----

Mr. FRAZIER. It can be used. But I don't feel that actually the position of this broad piece is of too much significance as far as use of the sling goes.

Mr. McCLOY. But certainly the sling would tend to steady the aim, even in this crude form?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes.

Mr. McCLOY. It would make more easy an offhand shot than if you didn't have a sling? It would make it more accurate?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would assist more in offhand than any other type of shooting, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to the scope for a moment, on the basis of the experiment, so to speak, which you had Klein's conduct, would you form an opinion as to whether the telescopic sight was mounted on Exhibit 139--was likely to have been mounted--by Klein's, or likely to have been mounted subsequently?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I could not deduce from that--from the way the scope is mounted--who mounted it. I can only say that the two are mounted in identical fashion. And it is possible that the same person or persons mounted the two scopes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly explain the operation of this rifle, the bolt action and the clip-feed mechanism?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon is loaded by turning up the bolt handle, drawing the bolt to the rear, and inserting the clip from the top of the weapon, after the clip has been loaded with the number of rounds you desire to load.

The maximum number of rounds the clip holds is six. However, the weapon can be loaded with a clip holding 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 round.

This is done by inserting the clip in the rear portion of the ejection port, and pushing it downwards until it clears the bottom of the bolt. The weapon then is loaded by moving the bolt forward. It picks up one cartridge out of the clip, carries it into the chamber of the weapon, and the bolt is then locked by turning down.

To fire the weapon, it is merely necessary to pull the trigger, since the closing of the bolt has cocked the cocking piece on the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you proceed to show the extraction and ejection mechanism?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The extraction is merely by raising the bolt and drawing it to the rear. When the cartridge is first loaded, the rim on the base of the cartridge is caught under the extractor in the face of the bolt, so that drawing the bolt to the rear draws the fired cartridge or a loaded cartridge if it has not been fired, out of the chamber to the rear, where the opposite side of the cartridge strikes a projection in the ejection port called the ejector. The ejector strikes on the opposite side of the case from the extractor, causing the shell to be thrown out of the weapon on the right-hand side.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, to fire the next shot, is any further action necessary, apart from closing the bolt and pulling the trigger, if remaining cartridges are in the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull out the clip and explain any markings you find on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. The only markings are the manufacturer's markings, "SMI," on the base of the clip, and a number, 952. The significance of that number I am not aware of. It could be a part number or a manufacturer's code number.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why someone might call that a five-shot clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, unless they were unfamiliar with it. There is an area of confusion in that a different type of rifle shooting larger ammunition, such as a .30-06 or a German Mauser rifle, uses five-shot clips, and the five-shot clip is the common style or size of clip, whereas this one actually holds six.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does the ammunition come in the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible--and I say this as a result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily part of the same shipment.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you receive a clip with that rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the clip later?

Mr. FRAZIER. They would have to acquire it from some source, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is it commonly available?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you use that rifle without the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you can.

Mr. McCLOY. What is the advantage of the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one shot at a time.

Mr. McCLOY. The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; one shot at a time.

Mr. McCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. The same as the .30-06?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.