Part 53

Mr. McCLOY. I understood you to say you did examine Oswald.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I operated on Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described in general the press conferences in which you participated immediately after the treatment which you rendered to President Kennedy and following the treatment which you assisted in rendering to Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you make an effort to leave the area of Dallas immediately following the Monday after the weekend of the assassination and the killing of Oswald in an effort to get away from the press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. I left Monday afternoon approximately 3 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?

Dr. PERRY. I went to McAllen, Tex., to the home of my mother-in-law.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far is that from Dallas?

Dr. PERRY. About 560 miles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave instructions as to revealing the destination that you set upon?

Dr. PERRY. No, only with Dr. Shires and my secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you contacted by the press in McAllen?

Dr. PERRY. The following day.

Mr. SPECTER. And were your whereabouts given either by Dr. Shires or your secretary?

Dr. PERRY. No, it was not.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the sequence that followed in McAllen, Tex.

Dr. PERRY. The gentleman from UPI came out and knocked on the door, and I was quite surprised, not having told anyone where I was going, and I asked him if he would mind telling me how he found out how I was there, and looking back at it I was kind of naive, I went to a relative and told no one else. He had a wire in his hands which he showed me indicating it had come from the Dallas office, naming the place where I was, and the exact address, and who I was staying with.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask to take pictures of you?

Dr. PERRY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your response?

Dr. PERRY. This was denied.

Mr. SPECTER. And did he ask you questions?

Dr. PERRY. He did, essentially the same questions which I have reiterated as to the emergency treatment that was undertaken. He did not press the point as to the number of bullets or anything of that, and I told him I had no knowledge of that. He only asked about the emergency measures I had taken and I related them to him as I have to you.

Mr. SPECTER. Subsequently, did an article appear about you in the Saturday Evening Post?

Dr. PERRY. It did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding the appearance of that article as you felt them to be?

Dr. PERRY. We were contacted, not I directly but Dr. Shires, by the medical editor of the Saturday Evening Post, this was all related to me by Dr. Shires, in regard to a possible story. This was declined, since Dr. Shires and those of us in the department felt that the news value was gone and this was commercialism, and they told Dr. Shires, I am told, that they would not print anything.

However, an article appearing under a New York Herald Tribune uncopyrighted by-line apparently was subsequently acquired by them and published.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that article accurate, inaccurate, or what was the level of accuracy of the contents thereof?

Dr. PERRY. The level of accuracy was not very good at all. It was overly dramatic, garish and in poor taste, and ethically damaging to me.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way was it ethically damaging to you, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. As you know, it is our policy that the physician's name in the treatment of any patient be essentially kept quiet. There are unusual circumstances surrounding this one, of course, and our names were made public. But this mentions my name freely, published a photograph that apparently was taken of me at the press conference and had previously appeared in a newspaper, and a picture of the emergency room, trauma room No. 1, and although most of the people in the medical profession, I have subsequently been assured by the Society of Surgeons and AMA, that they realize I had no part in it, which is obvious to them because of the gross inaccuracies. Nonetheless it is harmful to me as a member of the faculty of the medical school to have such an article in print.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you have occasion to discuss your observations with Comdr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that conversation occur?

Dr. PERRY. My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly when.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as to whether it was on Friday or Saturday?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the medium of your conversation?

Dr. PERRY. Over the telephone.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda?

Dr. PERRY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the conversation that you first had with him?

Dr. PERRY. He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other findings.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is?

Dr. PERRY. Autopsy, postmortem examination.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the second conversation which you had with Comdr. Humes, please?

Dr. PERRY. The second conversation was in regard to the placement of the chest tubes for drainage of the chest cavity. And I related to him, as I have to you, the indications that prompted me to advise that this be done at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you observe any bruising of the neck muscles of President Kennedy when you were engaged in your operative procedure that you have described?

Dr. PERRY. This bruising, as you describe, would have been obscured by the fact that there was a large amount of blood, hematoma, present in the neck and the mediastinum and hence all the blood tissues were covered by this blood.

Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in response to a question by Mr. McCloy I believe you commented that, as you recollected it, very few of the doctors would have had an opportunity to observe the hole in the President's neck and I think you said that only you and Dr. Carrico would have had such an opportunity. Can you state, with absolute certainty, at which point the various doctors arrived in the room? And bear in mind on this that while you have not had the opportunity to review the depositions, some of the other doctors have expressed the view that they have had an opportunity to see the wound. Specifically, Dr. M. T. Jenkins said in a deposition that he did see the wound, and I have not had an opportunity to ask you that question before, because you made the comment during the course of the testimony today.

But I would like your comment on, in your opinion, whether the other doctors would have had an opportunity, perhaps, to observe the neck wound prior to the tracheotomy?

Dr. PERRY. Since I don't know with accuracy the exact times of their arrival, it is conceivable that others could have seen it. And Dr. Jenkins was apparently one of the early arrivals in the room.

However, at the time that I arrived, as I related, Dr. Carrico was present and Dr. Jones and I. Dr. Jones immediately directed himself toward obtaining another intravenous infusion, and I immediately went to the neck wound. At the time of arrival of the other surgeons which assisted me in the operation, I had already made the incision.

Dr. Jenkins could have arrived at the time that I was preparing to make the incision and seen the wound. It is possible, I don't know when he came in the room. I know he did not examine the wound per se.

Mr. SPECTER. And similarly Dr. Jones has commented in the course of his deposition about the situation with respect to the wound in the neck.

Based on your observations, would it be consistent with what you know to be fact that he had an opportunity to examine the neck wound?

Dr. PERRY. I know he might have seen it because he and I entered the room simultaneously, we came down together. To my knowledge, he did not examine the wound although he might have noted the wound present as I went to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did he do then as you went to work?

Dr. PERRY. He was standing immediately on my left at that point, doing a venesection, a cut down in the left arm for the administration of fluids so he was able to observe the performance of the tracheotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, Dr. Perry, was President Kennedy alive or dead on arrival at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. The President was alive in that spontaneous ineffective respiratory motions were observed by me, and although I never detected a pulse or a heartbeat, I was told there was also electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope when it was initially attached indicating there was spontaneous activity of the heart.

He was, therefore alive for medical purposes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you about the electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found by you or by any other doctor at Parkland in the President's body?

Dr. PERRY. I found none. To the best of my knowledge neither did anyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over at any time?

Dr. PERRY. Not by me nor did I see it done.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present as long as any other doctor was present in the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I think that at the time that I left trauma room number one, I went outside, and washed my hands, and I opened the door briefly to retrieve my coat which I had left there on the floor and the nurse handed me my coat.

At that time as I recall Doctor Jenkins was still in the room and there were several other people there including Mrs. Kennedy and the priest, and some gentlemen whom I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you make any effort to examine the clothing of President Kennedy?.

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Why was it, Dr. Perry, that there was no effort made to examine the clothing of President Kennedy and no effort to turn him over and examine the back of the President?

Dr. PERRY. At the termination of the procedure and after we had determined that Mr. Kennedy had expired, I cannot speak for the others but as for myself, my work was done. I fought a losing battle, and I actually obviously, having seen a lot of wounds, had no morbid curiosity, and actually was rather anxious to leave the room. I had nothing further to offer.

Mr. SPECTER. With the President having been declared dead, did you consider it was your function to make any further exploration of the President's body?

Dr. PERRY. This is not my function or my prerogative. This would be undertaken by suitable authorities at the time of postmortem, people with experience superior to mine in determining things of this sort.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy, if you know, during the course of the treatment which you have described that you performed?

Dr. PERRY. I had the initial impression she was in the room most of the time although I have been corrected on this. When I entered the room she was standing by the door, rather kneeling by the door, and someone was standing there beside her. I saw her several times during the course of the resuscitative measures, when I would look up from the operative field to secure an instrument from the nearby tray.

Mr. DULLES. Under your procedure who had the responsibility for declaring that the President was dead?

Dr. PERRY. This was a combination of factors, Mr. Dulles, undertaken by those of us all in attendance, by Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and myself particularly since we were the senior people there.

I was informed subsequently that Mrs. Kennedy left the room several times to just outside the door but returned although as I say, I saw her several times in the room. I did not speak to her nor she to me so I do not have any knowledge as to exactly what she was doing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound in the President's chest?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you heretofore during the course of your testimony today described all of the wounds in the President which you have observed?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you and the other doctors affected, in your opinion, in your treatment of the President by virtue of the fact that he was the President of the United States?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I am sure that is true. At the time that I was going down the stairs to the emergency room I was, of course, quite concerned, not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding the incident nor in what condition I would find him, and at the time that I entered the room, and it was my initial impression that he had a mortal wound.

At that point I directed myself to doing that which I could do and, of course, the time then became quite compressed during the course of the procedures and it was really not until afterwards that the full impact of what had happened began to hit me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to render any treatment to Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I saw the Governor in regard to the consultation in regard to the injury to his leg. As I related earlier I am consultant in vascular surgery to the hospital, and the estimated course of the missile in his leg presupposed that he might have an injury to his femoral artery or vein and Dr. Shires asked me if I would put on a scrub suit and come to the operating room to assist in case it was necessary to do some arterial surgery.

It was not, however, so I did not operate.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time approximately did you arrive at the operating room where Governor Connally was being cared for?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the course of the operation performed by Dr. Shires?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, At that time I was there during the time Dr. Shires was there and Dr. Gregory was also operating on the arm at that point. Dr. Shaw had completed his portion of the procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been after the press conference had been completed?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical aid to Lee Harvey Oswald on November 24?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that may I get clear, Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory were in attendance?

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw in addition.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, and Shaw.

Mr. McCLOY. Shaw, Shires and Gregory?

Doctor PERRY. S-h-i-r-e-s.

Representative BOGGS. Before you get to Oswald may I ask one question? I am sure the doctor covered it. You said the minute you saw the President you felt he had suffered a mortal wound?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. You saw the wound immediately then?

Dr. PERRY. Well, I saw his condition immediately, and as you are aware, I have attended a lot of people with severe injuries.

Representative BOGGS. Surely.

Dr. PERRY. And he obviously was in extremis when I walked in the room. And then I noted very cursorily the wound in the head and it was obvious that this was an extremely serious wound.

Representative BOGGS. Was he still alive when you saw him?

Dr. PERRY. He was.

Representative BOGGS. That is all.

Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Specter, during the total time that you were examining and treating the President, how much of his exposed body did you see?

Dr. PERRY. The upper trunk predominantly, Congressman Ford. His chest, and, of course, his arms were bare, neck and head. I did not examine any other portions of his body nor did I see any other portions except briefly when I felt for the femoral pulse on the left side.

Representative FORD. From the waist on up the front?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the treatment rendered to Mr. Oswald at Parkland Memorial Hospital by yourself and by others as you observed it?

Dr. PERRY. At the time I saw--starting with when I was called?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. Well, I went immediately to the emergency room again, Dr. Jones and I who also was in the hospital again, and told me that I was the only attending surgeon present, and that they were bringing Mr. Oswald out, and I was in the surgery suite and I went directly to the emergency room just as he was being brought indoors.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was that?

Dr. PERRY. I really don't know, sir. It was about 11:15 or so when I was up in surgery. I had been seeing a baby in regard to an operation we had scheduled at 1 o'clock and then Dr. Jones came after me.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did it take you approximately to travel from the point where you received the notice that he was en route until your arrival at the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. No more than 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you say you arrived there simultaneously with Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Just as he came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where in the hospital was it where you met Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. He was brought into the emergency room, trauma room number two, and as they wheeled him in I came around the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take with respect to Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous people in attendance, more so than on the previous incident on Friday. He also obviously was quite seriously injured. He was cyanotic, very blue and although he also was attempting respirations, they were not effective, and an endotracheal tube was placed in him by one of the anesthesiologists, I think Dr. Jenkins, and I examined his chest and noted the entrance point of the bullet wound on the left side and I could feel the bullet just under the skin on the right side, right rear margin, indicating the bullet had passed entirely through his body and come to rest under the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. Where through his body?

Dr. PERRY. I beg your pardon sir, the bullet entered approximately the midaxillary line at about the 9th or 10th interspace on the left side of the chest cage, and came to rest just under the rib margin on the right side under the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you supply in lay language what cyanotic means?

Dr. PERRY. Blue from lack of oxygen.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you explain in lay language the midaxillary line?

Dr. PERRY. It is about the mid portion of the fold extending down from the armpit on the left. This is just rough because I glanced at that briefly and determined the nature of the path of the bullet and from looking at him it was obvious that this had traversed major structures in his body in order to reach that particular place, so while a cutdown was being done again to administer fluid, I asked someone to put in a left chest tube on him because it appeared it went in and I recalled surgery until they were bringing him directly up.

Dr. Tom Shires, Chief of the Surgical Services, came into the door at a point and Dr. McClelland, and we left and went to surgery to change clothes and they brought him from there immediately to surgery and we proceeded with the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present, if anyone, with Mr. Oswald at the time you arrived there?

Dr. PERRY. In the emergency room?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jenkins was there, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, Chief of Anesthesiology.

I think Dr. Giesecke was also there again, although I am not sure of that. I saw Dr. Risk who is a resident in urology and I saw Dr. Dulany who is a resident in surgery. Dr. Boland, I believe who is a resident in thoracic surgery and, of course, Dr. Jones and myself, and there were several other people, the nurses, I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout utilized in taking Mr. Oswald from trauma room number two which you have already described up to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. We have an express elevator that connects delivery room, operating room, emergency room and it is approximately 20 yards from trauma room two, I would estimate, just around the corner, in an even corridor and although I was not there as they took him up, I was in the operating room preparing and scrubbing, he was wheeled directly there to the express elevator and taken to the second floor where the operating suites are.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long does it take to get a patient from the trauma room up to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. It depends on a lot of factors. One is if the elevator is there or not or if it happens to be in surgery or in the delivery room. But I have on occasion where it was necessary that you must go with all dispatch to the operating room, have done it in a matter of a few minutes.

They brought him right in the door, placed him on the elevator with a finger controlling the hemorrhage where you could take him directly to the operating room. I have done that in a matter, I am sure, of less than 3 or 4 minutes if I had to.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take to get Oswald from trauma room two to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, I was told subsequently it was 12 minutes from the time we had him up. And----

Representative BOGGS. How long was it from the time he was shot until he reached the hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I have no knowledge of that, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Do you know?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. Was he conscious at any time so far as you know?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he did not say a word.

Mr. DULLES. He was not conscious?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; and even had he been, of course, once we had the endotracheal tube in he could not have spoken.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge of the operation performed on Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Tom Shires.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in assistance with Dr. Shires?

Dr. PERRY. I first assisted Dr. Shires and then Ronald Jones and Dr. McClelland were also at the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the operative procedures employed on Mr. Oswald please?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. From the nature of the trajectory of the wound and the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. The aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was made. A rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. An incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time we noticed approximately 3 litres of free blood which is an excess of three quarts. This was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving it out in the form of clots with the hands. It was noted there was considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper quadrants of the body. There was a large hematoma retroperitoneally in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather strikingly.