Part 5

Mr. JENNER. And interested people?

Mrs. PAINE. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was how many doors down or across the street?

Mrs. PAINE. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. She is the young German woman to whom I referred.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no word had been heard from Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any--did she do or say anything during that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that 10 days period?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.

Mr. JENNER. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.

Mr. JENNER. He might have made it collect.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't expect that either.

Mr. JENNER. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, there was no letter?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. There could well have been a letter but there was none.

Mr. DULLES. Where did you think he was at this time?

Mrs. PAINE. Houston.

Mr. DULLES. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?

Mrs. PAINE. Houston, possibly.

Mr. JENNER. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia reference was very slight.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any reference or discussion between you and Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston looking for work?

Mrs. PAINE. No, there was not.

Mr. JENNER. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any discussion of it.

Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern and you none?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That nobody had heard from Lee.

All right.

You heard from him on the 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time of day and how it came about?

Mrs. PAINE. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.

Mr. JENNER. The phone rang. Did you answer it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. PAINE. He asked to speak to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Whose voice was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it was Lee's.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said "here" and gave her the phone.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from you, where have you been?"

Mrs. PAINE. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then asked. I heard her say to him----

Mr. JENNER. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What did you hear her say?

Mrs. PAINE. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick you up."

Mr. JENNER. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Throughout?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, "Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."

Mr. JENNER. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.

Mr. JENNER. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.

Mrs. PAINE. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".

To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.

Mr. JENNER. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you heard?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"

Mr. JENNER. You did hear her say that?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.

Mr. JENNER. To come to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. And you had in fact given blood?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; indeed.

Mr. JENNER. That morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon getting to town?"

Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.

Mr. JENNER. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride.

So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when----

Mr. JENNER. You left the home?

Mrs. PAINE. I left the home.

Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to Marina about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she reported it to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You expressed no response, made no response to her having made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.

What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get there? Was there any discussion of that?

Mrs. PAINE. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to----

Mr. JENNER. He was coming?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But that you were not going to go to get him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you returned, was Lee at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.

Mr. JENNER. Why did it surprise you?

Mrs. PAINE. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it would be at least supper time before he got there.

Mr. JENNER. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the time you returned?

Mrs. PAINE. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a little less.

Representative FORD. Where did you go shopping?

Mrs. PAINE. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we practiced.

Mr. JENNER. That was three blocks away?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.

Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means he had come from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.

Mr. JENNER. To your door?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought him directly to the door.

Mr. JENNER. Where did this conversation take place?

Mrs. PAINE. In the home that afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, wasn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was he inside the home or outside?

Mrs. PAINE. Inside, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that 10-day interim?

Mrs. PAINE. Where he had been?

Mr. JENNER. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.

Mr. JENNER. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been in Houston looking for work?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or 22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. We never had such a conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of November in which he stated that he had been?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, this would have been the only occasion that she knew.

Mr. JENNER. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there was no conversation on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning----

The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or for a blood bank?

Mrs. PAINE. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a time.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. And you donated one pint for her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?

Mrs. PAINE. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.

Mr. JENNER. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like to get to that.

I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever seen that before?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the map to which you now have reference?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, one of these.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?

Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the kind I had in mind.

Mr. JENNER. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this is the document?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed thereon or Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.

Mr. JENNER. On other occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a marking that I had made.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having made any markings?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.

Mr. JENNER. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is.

All right, now tell us about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. The map?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. That is all there was to it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular places of employment?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion.

Mr. JENNER. As to which he might inquire?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did he--did you hand him the map?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?

Mrs. PAINE. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I said, yes, I do, you may have it.

Mr. JENNER. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his room or his and Marina's room and place it there?

Mrs. PAINE. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when this conversation occurred and took it with him.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore identified by that exhibit number.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 128 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job hunting?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out already to go in our car to the bus station.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. She did not?

Mrs. PAINE. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went with me, I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. That is the baby, you mean June?

Mrs. PAINE. June.

Mr. JENNER. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him depart?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas before he left?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather expensive. He was going to look for a room.

Mr. McCLOY. What was the date you took him into the bus station?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the 7th of October.

Mr. McCLOY. The 7th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove him all the way into Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. At any time?

Mrs. PAINE. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver training test.

Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my memory. I can't think of any other.

Mr. JENNER. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus terminal in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going--yes, I think I may know why I was going.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time first.

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.

Mr. JENNER. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is not quite as clear.

I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and something else, which was near the employment office.

Mr. JENNER. In downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me downtown. I hadn't been thinking--I at no time made a purposeful trip just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the 12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.

Mr. JENNER. At the bus terminal?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to ask if he could come out for the weekend.

Mr. JENNER. The 12th is what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. The 12th is a Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that he did call?

Mrs. PAINE. Pardon?

Mr. JENNER. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to come?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did he always do that?

Mrs. PAINE. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of November.

Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a very few moments.

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. McCLOY. What did you do with the children?

Mrs. PAINE. We always take them.

Mr. McCLOY. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; big station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of October, what did he have----

Mrs. PAINE. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.

Mr. JENNER. Please, when he first returned to Irving after----

Mrs. PAINE. He hitchhiked out.

Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston looking for a job?

Mrs. PAINE. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

It is that occasion that I have in mind.

What did he have with him in the way of luggage?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts, things that are hung on hangers.

Mr. JENNER. With respect to that trip----

Mrs. PAINE. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper bag on Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. The 7th.

Mr. JENNER. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of his returning to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing there.

That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?

Mrs. PAINE. So far as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The only piece of luggage of which you have any recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him when he left on Monday morning, the 7th?

Mrs. PAINE. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But that is the best I have.

Mr. JENNER. It is your best recollection anyhow?

Mrs PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and her understanding of them?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing I recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. None at all.

What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject matter with respect to his weekend visits?

Mrs. PAINE. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the----

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the week was there discussion between you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for work.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear the question.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't, just less.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.

Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call----

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Did she understand the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on.

Mr. JENNER. You were translating for her?

Mrs. PAINE. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I did telephone----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.