Part 47

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you can think of that you haven't told us here that might be relevant to what you saw in connection with the Tippit shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't--nothing that I know of. That is the first time I ever seen anything like that happen, and I was pretty well excited and mixed up, and not knowing what to do or what not to do. But actually, of course, right after the shooting, I saw a number of people come running over, you see, from everywhere.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all men?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, they were just people.

Mr. BELIN. General Carr, do you have any questions?

Mr. CARR. No, sir. I was exploring with him, but I guess we won't get into it.

Mr. BELIN. Those are all the questions I have. Just a second. When you saw a picture in the morning paper of Lee Harvey Oswald, did this look similar to the man you saw at the Tippit shooting, or did it look different?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say similar; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the same man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I had my eyes examined when I went to work for the cab company and the lady said I had remarkable eyesight. You know, they have--after I went to work, after a while, I had to go get my eyes examined.

Representative FORD. You had your eyes examined subsequent to your employment with the cab company?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was sometime after, maybe 6 months after.

Mr. DULLES. How many years ago was that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, about a year, approximately.

Representative FORD. At that time what did the eye examiner tell you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. She said I had excellent eyesight and vision.

Representative FORD. You don't wear glasses?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Representative FORD. What about your hearing?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I can hear. I got good hearing. I never did have it examined or anything, but I can hear everything.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, have you ever had any trouble with officers of the law?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I got a ticket for parking that I had to pay.

Representative FORD. That is a traffic violation.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. No; I really haven't had any problems that amount to anything otherwise than traffic violations.

Representative FORD. Nothing other than traffic violations?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I was picked up one time in New York City for stowing away on a tugboat.

Mr. BELIN. Stowing away on a boat?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually what happened----

Mr. DULLES. How old were you then?

Mr. SCOGGINS. 17 or 18. I was sleeping in a boxcar and they put that boxcar on a tugboat and sent it across the river.

Mr. DULLES. You stowed away without knowing it.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think that is a very grave offense.

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never have been in any grave trouble.

Mr. BELIN. One more question, Mr. Scoggins. You rode up here to Washington on an airplane with Mrs. Markham, did you not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before you saw Mrs. Markham the other day, did you ever recognize her as having seen her from the time of the Tippit shooting at all or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I saw her down there talking to the policemen after I came back. You see. I saw her talking to them.

Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. When you say, "I came back" is that when you got into your car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there and got in a car with them and left the scene.

Mr. DULLES. At what stage did you see Mrs. Markham?

Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had gotten back up there. After I had drove around in the neighborhood looking for Oswald or looking for this guy.

Mr. DULLES. It was after that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was after that.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you identified the man in the lineup at the police station on November 23, was there any other person who at the same time was asked to identify a man in that lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, one other.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know--one other person?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what that man's name is or what his occupation is?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, he drives a taxicab.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know his name?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; his name is Bill Whaley.

Mr. BELIN. Whaley?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I think it is Whaley. I didn't know him from Adam until that day, you know, and he said his name was Whaley.

Mr. BELIN. When you were there and identified a man, had Whaley already identified that man or not? I mean, did you hear Whaley or see Whaley identify that man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. He was sitting over on my left.

Mr. BELIN. He was on your left?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was dark. They turned the lights out where we were sitting. We could see the man with lights up there.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see Mr. Whaley at the time he made the identification?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I suppose if I would have looked over there I could have seen that there was a man there, that I could have recognized him.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at Mr. Whaley at the time?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make your identification by your voice or by your hands?

Mr. SCOGGINS. By my hands, using--I put up three fingers.

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you ahead of time to hold up the number of fingers for the man that you saw?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How many fingers did you hold up?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Three.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you held up your three fingers, did you know how many fingers Mr. Whaley was holding up?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then did you know whether or not Mr. Whaley had identified the man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any person or were there any persons standing between you and Mr. Whaley?

Mr. SCOGGINS. That I don't know because I did not look over there.

Mr. DULLES. Could Mr. Whaley, in your opinion, see you holding up these fingers?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, no. I made sure of that because I had my hand down like this.

Mr. BELIN. When you had your hand down you are putting it in front of your belt?

Mr. SCOGGINS. As well as I could remember I had it down kind of like this here. I don't know whether I used my right or my left hand, but I didn't hold up three fingers like this, but I held them down just about like this.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to your right hand and putting it somewhat about a few inches above the buckle of your belt; is that about where you held up your fingers?

Mr. SCOGGINS. About as well as I could remember.

Mr. BELIN. What happened after you held up your fingers, did someone see you holding your fingers up there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Representative FORD. Where were they standing beside you so that they could see your fingers?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, this gentleman was standing over back a piece to my left, sir.

Representative FORD. Was it close to you, sir?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There was one man on my right. He was Secret Service or FBI, I think FBI; and the other man was a policeman, Dallas policeman.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Whaley was making his identification at the same time that you did or did he make it before or after?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. All I know is that we viewed them at the same time.

Mr. DULLES. He viewed them at the same time?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know at what time Mr. Whaley made his identification?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him make the identification?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't even see him.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know what his identification was?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never asked him which one or nothing, because I never did discuss it with him at all after that.

Representative FORD. When you brought your cab up to the corner of 10th and Patton, did you just conclude or had you just concluded dropping a passenger?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, approximately five minutes before that.

Representative FORD. Do you keep a record of the trips that you take?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. During your working day?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. If I pick up a passenger, say, like 28 minutes to 12 o'clock, we put 20 minutes to 12. We don't put the odd minutes down.

If we let him out 2 minutes after 12, we put down 12 o'clock. I know I let him out at 1 o'clock, maybe a minute or two after. We do put the destination we leave from and the destination he is going to on our records sheet.

Representative FORD. What does your record show about this last trip?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked him up at Love Field and carried him to 321 North Ewing, as well as I can remember now, that was the address.

Representative FORD. And your record shows that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. When I picked him up, the mileage started from, the mileage I let him out on the speedometer. When I picked him up we put the mileage down. We don't put the tenth down, and when we let him out we put the mileage and the time; and when we pick him up we put the mileage and the time, and the destination where we start and where we let him off, and the amount the fare was.

Representative FORD. And your last entry shows what for that day?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't know what the last entry was. Up until then that was the one where I let the man off at. It was an apartment building. Of course, I don't have the apartment number, anything like that. The guy says, "I want to go to 321 North Ewing," and that is where I take him. It is an apartment. Of course now, if somebody calls in for a cab at a certain address, if it is an apartment, they have to give their apartment number so we could find it.

Representative FORD. How far was this last destination to the point of 10th and Patton?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was less than a mile, about a half mile or maybe--well, let's see, it was closer to a mile, I would say.

Representative FORD. Was there any particular reason why you went to the corner of 10th and Patton?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I belong to that club there, and I was going around there to get me a coca cola that I could have gotten anywhere else, but I know a lot of the guys.

Representative FORD. What is the club called?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It is a gentleman's club, a domino parlor where we play dominos.

Representative FORD. It is at what address?

Mr. SCOGGINS. 123 or 125 South Patton.

Mr. BELIN. About where is it in relation to East 10th and Patton, how far away, a block, two blocks?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not a block. It is just about, I would say, just--if it was measured it would be a little over a half block from where I was parked at to the place, you see.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder, perhaps, if we can see it on any of these pictures, Mr. Scoggins. Do you see it in this picture, Exhibit 530?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I can see the building.

Mr. BELIN. Let's see the building here.

Mr. SCOGGINS. That is it up there.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can't, perhaps, put on Exhibit 530 an arrow which points to this building, and we will put "G" for the gentleman's club; is that correct? Is that the building to which you are referring?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, we have another picture that we would like to have you identify, Commission Exhibit 534. This is a picture in which the camera appears to be heading in what direction?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be heading east--I mean west on 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. That picture was taken the other day at the time you drove your cab back to that scene, is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think it was; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does this appear to be the position your cab was in at the time of the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. At this time we offer and introduce into evidence all exhibits up through 534, except we do not have a 533 because we renumbered the original Exhibit 533, so we do not have a 533.

Do you have anything more, Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. Those exhibits will be admitted.

(Items identified as Commission Exhibits through No. 534, with the exception of Exhibit No. 533, were admitted in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Scoggins, you have referred, I believe, to a conversation you had with Mr. Whaley, I think his name is, and I would like to have you just recount what you recall of what Mr. Whaley said to you, and where he said it, and at what time.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, this conversation we are talking about, while we were down there waiting.

Mr. DULLES. Down where, down at the police station?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; down at the cab office--it is a cab office at 610 South Akard Street, you know.

Mr. DULLES. A cab stand?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. We call it our main office.

Mr. DULLES. And Mr. Whaley's cab belonged to the same company as your cab?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. Only he drives out of downtown, which office is 610 South Akard Street, that is the number. They have a building there, a large building, with all the dispatching offices and everything, and mine, of course, I have got the same dispatchers, we all belong to the same company. I drive an Oak Cliff cab, and he drives downtown.

Mr. DULLES. Relate what Mr. Whaley said to you.

Mr. SCOGGINS. He didn't relate it to me. He was talking to the others.

Mr. DULLES. He was talking to cabdrivers?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was talking to one of the----

Mr. DULLES. Where did this take place?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was down at the cabstand.

Mr. DULLES. Was this on Saturday after the assassination?

Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was telling them where he picked him up and where he took him to.

Mr. DULLES. And that is what you recall?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; because I didn't know him. I wasn't acquainted with the man.

Mr. DULLES. You were not acquainted with Mr. Whaley?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. Before he came down there that morning I wouldn't have known him from Adam, you know, just wouldn't have had any idea who he was.

Mr. DULLES. Would you recall what he said as to where he picked up the man and where he took him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He said he picked him up at the Greyhound bus and carried him to a neighborhood, no particular address, on North Beckley, the 500 block.

Mr. DULLES. Have you anything more on that, Mr. Belin?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I do have one other question.

Mr. DULLES. Proceed then.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the Tippit shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. When I was down there giving my statement to my supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and I said I don't have any idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said it was 1:23.

Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it was 1:23 in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. When you called in after the shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Anything else?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Well, thank you very much, Mr. Scoggins.

TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM RESUMED

Mr. DULLES. You were sworn when you previously were before us, and this testimony of yours will be covered by the oath you previously have given. Will you be seated?

Mr. BALL. I have two Commission Exhibits, 535 and 536. I will show them to you, Mrs. Markham, and I will ask you if you have ever seen the man who is pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Never have seen him before. Do you think he might have been one of the men you talked to before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no.

Mr. BALL. They are pictures of the same man.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. We are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the assassination.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I know. No; not this man. This man I have never seen--I have never seen this man in my life.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't. It is just a picture of a man; I don't know him.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, do you have any further questions?

Mr. BALL. No further questions.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Representative FORD. None whatsoever?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Traffic violations?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You are lucky.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have never been in trouble.

Representative FORD. No difficulties whatsoever with the law?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is all, Mrs. Markham. You can be excused.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. I offer Exhibits 535 and 536 in evidence at this time.

Mr. DULLES. They will be received.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 535 and 536 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. They were taken from a newspaper, they were taken from newspaper accounts which purported to be, to show, the picture of a man named Mark Lane.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, because he appeared before this Commission, did he not?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich, can you identify him? Were you present when Mr. Lane appeared before this Commission?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I was.

Mr. DULLES. Can you identify these pictures as pictures of Mr. Lane?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I can identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane. I would also like for the record to indicate where they came from. Commission Exhibit No. 535 is taken from--Commission Exhibit 536 came from the San Francisco Chronicle, and dated February 8, 1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark Lane.

Commission No. 535 is a photograph from a newspaper clipping which was in the Commission files, and it is an Associated Press photograph, and appeared, it is taken from the New York Herald Tribune of March 5, 1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark Lane. I have met Mr. Lane once or twice prior to his appearance before this Commission, and I was present during his testimony before this Commission.

Mr. DULLES. You identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane?

Mr. REDLICH. These are photographs of Mark Lane.

Mr. DULLES. And these Exhibits 535 and 536 were the exhibits which were presented to Mrs. Markham?

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show how they were presented. They were clipped out so there was not any writing or anything to indicate whom they were pictures of on their face.

Mr. DULLES. That is on the record.

Mrs. Markham, there is a short question that Congressman Ford wanted to put to you.

Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have always had good eyesight.

Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't.

Representative FORD. Have your eyes tested recently?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't. I have no cause to.

Representative FORD. You have never worn glasses in your lifetime?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. Are you farsighted, nearsighted, or neither, just good-sighted?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just good-sighted. I did a lot of writing and a cashier and everything. I see pretty good.

Representative FORD. If you go to a movie can you see the picture easily and well?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Oh, yes; yes, sir; real well.

Representative FORD. You can see things at a distance quite well?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. I have never had glasses.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA JEANETTE DAVIS

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get the notice through the mail asking you to appear here?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. We told you orally in Washington, or in Dallas last Friday, didn't we?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. She has not been sworn. Will you kindly raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give to this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. But when Mr. Belin and I were in Dallas on Friday of last week we asked you to appear?

Mrs. DAVIS. On Saturday.

Mr. BALL. On Saturday, was it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is right. And you voluntarily agreed to come up here, didn't you?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Without any notice from the Commission?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. DULLES. May we thank you for that.

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex.

Mr. BALL. You are married, are you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have some children?

Mrs. DAVIS. Two.

Mr. BALL. What is your husband's name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy.

Mr. BALL. Troy Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or what is his business?

Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer.

Mr. BALL. Beg pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BALL. Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Live there all your life?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; part of it I have lived in Dallas some.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mrs. DAVIS. Halfway through the 10th midterm.

Mr. BALL. Then did you get married?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were living in Dallas on November 22, were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What was your address there in Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who was living with you at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. You mean in the apartment or in the building?

Mr. BALL. In the apartment with you.

Mrs. DAVIS. Just my husband and two children.

Mr. BALL. You had a sister, did you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Sister-in-law.

Mr. BALL. What is her name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia.

Mr. BALL. Was she living there at the time, too?

Mrs. DAVIS. They lived around the side of the apartment house.

Mr. BALL. In the same building?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was your husband's sister?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; it was my husband's brother's wife.

Mr. BALL. Husband's brother's wife. I see.

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have got some pictures here so we will understand. I will show you Exhibit 525. Is the house in which you were living on November 22d shown in the picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Here.

Mr. BALL. It is the one on the corner? The southeast corner of 10th and Patton, isn't it?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know anything about that, but I know where it is.

Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 524. Is the house shown in that picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; sir.

Mr. BALL. And I show you 534, is the house shown in that picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I am showing you 528 and there is a lawn there, that is the lawn of what house?

Mrs. DAVIS. Of the house I lived in.

Mr. BALL. The house you lived in.

On that day did something unusual happen that you observed, on November 22d?

Mrs. DAVIS. Those gunshots.

Mr. BALL. Gunshots? Where were you when you heard gunshots?

Mrs. DAVIS. In bed.

Mr. DULLES. Did you say gunshot or gunshots?

Mrs. DAVIS. Shots.

Mr. DULLES. Plural? How many did you hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. Just two, they were pretty close together.

Mr. BALL. You were lying on the bed. What did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. I got up, put my shoes on to see what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go outdoors?

Mrs. DAVIS. At first, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. When you went to the door, did you open the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. I opened the door and held the screen opened.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham standing across the street over there, and she was standing over there and the man was coming across the yard.

Mr. BALL. A man was coming across what yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. My yard.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.

Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he was emptying it?