Warren Commission (03 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15)
Part 46
Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say it was white, but----
Mr. BELIN. Would the shirt be lighter than Exhibit 150 or about the same color or darker or would Exhibit 150 look anything like the shirt you thought he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I don't, so I couldn't answer that.
Mr. BELIN. And you say you don't know, or you think this is different than what he was wearing?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't say about the shirt.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SCOGGINS. I just couldn't.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you were in Dallas the other day and they took these pictures, they also tried to take a picture through your car windows toward the place where the car of Officer Tippit was parked, is that correct?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the car of Officer Tippit was parked on November 22d?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was parked approximately between the first and second houses and across the driveway between the houses, pretty well across the driveway.
Mr. BELIN. Was it parked across a driveway?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. As well as I remember, it was.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Exhibit 522, which purports to be a picture taken of a squad car, and I don't know if you can see through the window a little driveway----
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the driveway in front of which the squad car was parked?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the two houses between which the driveway ran?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. This would be the two houses--and the other one I didn't know.
Mr. BELIN. We have a magnifying glass here, and I believe with it we might be able to see the number on that house. Can you see the number over the doorway of that house?
Mr. SCOGGINS. 404.
Mr. BELIN. That would be which street?
Mr. SCOGGINS. That would be on East 10th, on the south side.
Mr. BELIN. This appears to be, or does not appear to be, the position of the car on November 22?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the approximate position; I would say it was.
Mr. BELIN. Now, handing you what has been marked Exhibit 532, do you remember when this picture was taken?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember the day. I don't remember the date of it.
Mr. BELIN. But you remember it was taken?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember it was taken.
Mr. BELIN. Sometime in March of this year?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You saw the photographer point the camera through the window?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is this about the view that you had toward the police car on November 22d?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. As you were eating your lunch?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And it appears that you can see through one of the windows there the police car, is that correct?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was the police car at the time Exhibit 532 was taken, was it in the approximate same position that the car of Officer Tippit was on November 22?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think so, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you saw the police car there?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was it parked about in front of that driveway?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I would say in the same area. You know, it may not be on the same inch.
Mr. BELIN. Within a foot or two?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would take Exhibit 523 and see if there is any number on Exhibit 523 which corresponds to the position of the man who was walking along East 10th Street, or wherever he was when you first saw him.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately where 16 is.
Mr. BELIN. Yes; you are pointing to the position where the arrow is in number 16?
Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin, he didn't see him walking.
Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him there.
Mr. BELIN. I used the word "walking." Pardon me. When you first saw him he was on point 16. Where did you see him when you next saw him, where did you see him when he moved?
Mr. SCOGGINS. When I next saw him he was in the process of running up 10th Street.
Mr. BELIN. You next saw him after the shooting then?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. About where was he on 10th Street when you next saw him?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He was on the sidewalk when I saw him, about, I would say, about--I am trying to figure out now--about number 21 or back a little piece from 21.
Mr. BELIN. Here is the squad car and 21 would be just east of the squad car?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him there?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What was he doing when you saw him in the area of 21 in Exhibit 523?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He was proceeding west on 10th and had----
Mr. BELIN. All right. I wonder if you would just take this pen and on Exhibit 523 mark the route that you think this man took.
Mr. SCOGGINS. This is a sidewalk here.
Mr. BELIN. That is the sidewalk.
Mr. SCOGGINS. This is the house back here.
Mr. BELIN. This is the corner house, this is the second house, this is the third house, 400, 404, and 410.
Mr. DULLES. What does that line show, Mr. Belin?
Mr. BELIN. This is to show the movement of the man from point 21.
Mr. DULLES. Along the sidewalk going west?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. SCOGGINS. He ran to the point in the shrubbery.
Mr. BELIN. Is that as far as you have seen him go?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You have now marked by ink line commencing on Exhibit 523 to a point that I will mark is the route that you believe you saw the man take. Where were you when you saw him take this route?
Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him coming, you see, over here, I got out of my cab and I started to cross the street to find a place to get behind, and I got midway across the street, and then I got back and hid behind the cab. I didn't see him in here, but I saw him when he hit the shrubbery, when he hit that shrubbery.
Mr. BELIN. There is an opening in part of that shrubbery?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, and I heard that when he hit that, and he was looking over his left shoulder at that time. I first saw him and then I got out----
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would show us on Exhibit 531, if you would put an X there, the approximate location you were when you saw this man.
Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him?
Mr. BELIN. No; when you first--yes, you can put where you first saw him.
Mr. SCOGGINS. I was sitting inside my cab when I first saw him.
Mr. BELIN. I mean after the shooting.
Mr. SCOGGINS. After the shooting I guess when I first saw him, right along about here.
Mr. BELIN. All right, we are going to put--you had gotten out of your car, and we are going to put a letter "A" with an arrow there. Where were you when you saw him coming through the bushes, or by the bushes?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I was back there beside my cab.
Mr. BELIN. You were still at that same point?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, when I first saw him I left the cab and I went out to the middle of the street.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him and he was at the point you marked, position 21 here on Exhibit 523?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Here.
Mr. BELIN. At point "A." Then you went to the--you went out to the street, in the street, and came back to point "A" on Exhibit 531--were you standing or were you crouched?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of crouched down behind the cab.
Mr. BELIN. All right. How did you see him if you were crouched?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, whenever he run through those bushes I looked up again, you see.
Mr. BELIN. You looked through your cab window?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him--whenever I heard him hit those bushes----
Mr. BELIN. Did you stand or just look through your cab window?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I just looked and saw he was going down there.
Mr. BELIN. About how close was this man to you when you saw him, the closest when you saw him coming through the bushes, approximately.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, I would say from here to that chair down there.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. SCOGGINS. About that chair down there.
Mr. BELIN. 12 feet?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Referring to your tracing of the path that the man later found to be Oswald followed, he went through the lower of these two bushes there, did he? He went right through it?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. You see there is an opening in there.
Mr. DULLES. But he didn't apparently take the opening, according to this, because he went right through the bushes.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, because I didn't see any opening in there. Was there an opening in there?
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, for the record, when you are referring to 523, there is an opening between the shrubbery, but within the shrubbery itself there is an opening, and I think it will appear if you----
Mr. DULLES. I think the witness testified he heard the bushes move.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Yes. But the opening within the bushes, is it a large opening or a small opening between the bushes?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not too large, but a man can get through very easily by going through.
Mr. DULLES. But he hits the bushes as he goes through?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. I see. That makes it clear.
Mr. BELIN. It is not the wide opening between the two sets of bushes.
Mr. DULLES. It is not quite as wide.
Mr. SCOGGINS. It is an opening between the bushes themselves, like maybe someone had planted three bushes and maybe one of them had died to break the shrubbery.
Mr. DULLES. That has happened to me.
Mr. BELIN. What I am saying, Mr. Dulles, on Exhibit 523 there are two groups of bushes. Within the lower group of bushes there is a slight space to which the witness is referring.
Mr. DULLES. I see. It is not the space here.
Mr. BELIN. It is not the space between the two sets of bushes.
Mr. DULLES. At this point do you recall whether he was running or walking or what pace was he going at?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He was going at a kind of lope.
Mr. DULLES. Lope?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, what you might call a little trot. He did not seem in too big a hurry, but he wasn't walking.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, you last saw the man when he was at the point that you let the line stop at on Exhibit 523, is that correct?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. That would be in the approximate location.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I got on my radio.
Mr. BELIN. And then you told us about calling your dispatcher?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I got back in my cab to call my dispatcher, you see.
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. SCOGGINS. And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if we can find him."
Mr. DULLES. Before you ask the next question, I wonder if I can ask one question here. Do you know whether the ambulance came as a result of the message you sent?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't.
Mr. DULLES. You do not know?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. DULLES. From the time angle, do you think that could have happened?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It was awful fast if it did. They got there awfully quickly if they did.
Mr. DULLES. You don't know of any other warning going in; you put your warning in, and that is all you know about it?
Mr. SCOGGINS. That is all I know about it at that time, and I do know this other gentleman called after I got up to the car, he called in, and they told him it had already been.
(Off the record discussion.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, I started to ask you about the revolver of the policeman when you came and saw him. This was in his holster or on the street?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It was on the street whenever I saw it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was with relation to the policeman's body?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It was there pretty close to his body, you know, like kind of under his body when they picked him up. It either fell out of his holster or was laying on the ground, one, I don't know which.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see him do? This man came up and picked up the policeman's gun. He picked it up and said, "Let's go see if we can find him?"
Mr. SCOGGINS. I thought the man was a kind of police, Secret Service or something, I didn't know, and I take him and we drove around over the neighborhood looking, and I still didn't know what kind--I still thought he was connected with the police department in some way.
Mr. BELIN. What route did you take as you drove over the neighborhood?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. You can't tell us the route you took over the neighborhood?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I was doing the driving and he was doing the directing.
Mr. BELIN. He directed you where to go?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually, I couldn't say where he was going.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Representative FORD. Were you in your cab?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Representative FORD. When you saw the pistol it wasn't in Officer Tippit's hands?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir; oh, he never did have a pistol in his hand, as far as I know.
Mr. BELIN. You saw him when he was falling?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was holding his stomach.
Mr. BELIN. You saw him holding his stomach as he fell?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hands?
Mr. SCOGGINS. If he did I couldn't see it, and I don't think he ever got to his pistol from what I saw.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the man with the gun as he opened his gun, as he was going to the west on--up 10th Street at all after the shooting?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I didn't see him.
Mr. BELIN. After you went around to look for the man, did you find him at all?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No. We drove around and asked several people, but we did not see anybody that looked like him.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, by that time there was more policemen there than you can shake a stick at. They were all over that place, and we stopped the cab.
Mr. BELIN. At about what time, do you know offhand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. About 1:30, I guess, approximately 1:30; between 1:30 and 1:35, I would say. We cruised around several blocks looking for him, and we--one of these police cars came by and this fellow who was with me stopped it, and we got back in the car and went back up to the scene, and he give them the pistol, and that time is when I found out he wasn't an officer.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened, or what did you do?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they was questioning a lot of people and questioning everybody, and they was talking, and so I went back and got on my radio and contacted my supervisor, and they wanted me to come into the office and make a statement, and so I did, the cab company. One of the supervisors got a statement of it, and he asked me did the police, did I give them a statement, and I told him no because, and he said, "Well, why didn't you?" I said, "They didn't ask me. They talked with everybody else."
So the next day they took me down and put me through a lineup, showed me a lineup of four people, and I identified the one that I had seen the day before.
Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this question. First of all, do you remember, or can you describe the man you saw on November 22 with the gun?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He was a medium-height fellow with, kind of a slender look, and approximately, I said 25, 26 years old, somewhere along there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was light; let's see, was it light or not--medium brown, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Medium brown, I would say--now, wait a minute. Now, medium brown or dark.
Mr. BELIN. Medium brown or dark hair?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was he a Negro or a white man?
Mr. SCOGGINS. White, light complected, not real brown.
Mr. BELIN. Was he fat, average build or thin?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, he was slender; not real slender, but you know----
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing glasses or not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. That he had on?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember about him, the color of his shoes?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't say that.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any jewelry he might have had on?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. You say you went down to the police station when, Mr. Scoggins, approximately?
Mr. SCOGGINS. You mean the time of day it was?
Mr. BELIN. Was it the same day of the shooting or the next day?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, it was the next day.
Mr. BELIN. Morning, afternoon, or evening, if you remember?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, the best I can remember, they called me down from the cab stand, the police came down to the office and picked me up. Well, the other guy--I was close to the downtown area, and it didn't take me long to get there, and I waited quite a while before the other man, he was quite out a ways, and it was before dinner.
Mr. BELIN. It was before dinner?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, whenever they called me in.
Mr. BELIN. Would it have been on the afternoon of November 23, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. SCOGGINS. When they took me down there it was along about dinner time.
Representative FORD. What do you mean by dinner time? In various parts of the country dinner and supper get confused a little bit. Was it the noon meal or the evening meal?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Representative FORD. Yes what? It was the noon meal?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. They took you down about the time of the noon meal, is that correct; they took you to the police station?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think that would be about the time.
Mr. BELIN. Sometime after you got there after the noon meal you saw the lineup, is that correct?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How many people were in the lineup, if you can remember?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Four.
Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like--strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't know his name as Oswald at that time, did you, or did you not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, the next day I did. But, of course I didn't know what his name was the day that I picked him out.
Mr. BELIN. You saw a man in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you any particular man was Oswald in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened in the police station with regard to the lineup, what they did to you, what they said to you, and what you said to them, and so on.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they had the four men up there in the lineup, and before they brought them in they told us what they wanted us to do, to look them over and be sure we was, in our estimation, we was right on the man, and which one it was, the one that we saw, the one that I saw.
Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you one of the men was the man you saw or not, or did they tell you "See if you can"--just what did they say? Did they say "Here is a lineup, see if you can identify anyone," or did they say, "One of the men in the lineup"----
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I believe those are the words they used. I am not----
Mr. BELIN. Did all of these men look different to you? Were most of them fat, or were most of them thin, or some fat, some thin, some tall, some short?
Mr. SCOGGINS. There were two of them--the one that I identified as the one I saw over at Oak Cliff, and there was one I saw similar to him, and the other two was a little bit shorter.
Mr. DULLES. Had you been looking at television or seeing television prior to your appearance here at the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. DULLES. You had not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Had you been working this Saturday morning with your cab?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. In other words, you went to work Saturday morning at the regular time?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Representative FORD. And were working when they asked you to come down to the cab stand to go over to the police station?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. All right.
Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I think I saw one in the morning paper.
Mr. BELIN. Do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I take the evening paper myself.
Mr. BELIN. You went down and bought a morning paper?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't go out. I was looking at one of the--some of the cab drivers had it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any television picture on the morning of November 23 of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I have never until this day seen it.
Mr. BELIN. On television?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I never have.
Representative FORD. Do you have a television in your home?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes sir; I do. But I don't--when I get home I will read the paper, and after you work about 12 hours you don't feel like fooling around with television too much.
Mr. BELIN. What number man in the lineup did you identify as having seen on November 22?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Number 3.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have the man turn around, or could you----
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, they turned him around.
Mr. BELIN. Did they turn just one man around or all of them?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No; they had them all.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if the number 3 man in the lineup was wearing the same clothes that the man you saw at the Tippit shooting wore?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had on a different shirt, and he didn't have a jacket on. He had on kind of a polo shirt.
Mr. BELIN. Before you went to view the lineup, did any of the police officers show you a picture of this man?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Sometime later, after the lineup, did any investigator come up to you with a picture of anyone and ask you if you could identify him?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was an FBI man or a Dallas policeman or a Secret Service agent?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He was an FBI or a Secret Service.
Mr. BELIN. What did he ask you and what did you tell him?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He gave me some pictures, showed me several pictures there, which was, some of them were, pretty well resembled him, and some of them didn't, and they looked like they was kind of old pictures, and I think I picked the wrong picture. I am not too----
Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him, if you remember?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't really--I know he showed me his credentials.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say to you something like "These are pictures we have of Lee Harvey Oswald"? Did he use that name in front of you, or did he say, "Here are some pictures. See if you can identify them"--if you remember?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't remember, but after I got through looking at them and everything, and I says, I told them one of these two pictures is him, out of this group he showed me, and the one that was actually him looked like an older man than he was to me. Of course, I am not too much on identifying pictures. It wasn't a full shot of him, you know, and then he told me the other one was Oswald.
Representative FORD. Had you narrowed the number of pictures from more than two to two?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Representative FORD. In other words, they showed you pictures of how many people altogether, how many different people, your best estimate?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say 4 or 5.
Representative FORD. And you narrowed the number of 4 or 5 down to 2?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Down to two; yes.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, at the time of the shooting, did you see any pedestrians standing at the corner of East 10th and Patton, any of the corners there?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't see anybody. I was kind of excited.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other person walking along the street there?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Not at the time of the shooting, I didn't.