Part 45

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; he cut across like this, across Patton, and went out like that.

Mr. DULLES. Like this means to the right or to the left?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It means to the right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. To his right, to the man's right, as he was running?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He ran back, turned and came back down 10th to Patton Street. He cut across Patton Street like this.

Mr. BELIN. Heading toward what street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Toward Jefferson; yes, sir. Then he was still in sight when I began to scream and holler and run to this police car, well, to Mr. Tippit.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BALL. Are there any more questions?

You can be excused, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have any questions you would like to ask, Mr. Attorney General?

Mr. CARR. No; I have not.

Mr. DULLES. Could you wait for just a moment. We are sorry to detain you. There is something that might come up with the next witness, and we might wish to ask you another question. I do not think we will. We are very grateful to you, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. Exhibit previously marked "533," which is the squad car, Tippit, showing the street and blood spot in the street, I would like to have marked as "Exhibit 527." It was marked by mistake.

Mr. DULLES. Is that our last exhibit?

Mr. BALL. That is our last exhibit, 527 is our last exhibit now.

(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 527 was received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. You might stand for just a moment, Mr. Scoggins. The witnesses are sworn before they can give testimony before this Commission.

Do you swear, Mr. Scoggins, that the testimony that you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Mr. SCOGGINS. To the best of my knowledge; yes.

Mr. DULLES. Be seated, please.

Mr. Scoggins, the Commission is taking testimony, and the Chief Justice asked me to preside in his absence, he has to be away in the Court this morning.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of certain others who were in the vicinity of the shooting of Officer Tippit, and we will want your testimony on that particular point this morning.

Will you proceed?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin is going to examine this witness.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry on the examination on behalf of the Commission.

Will you proceed please?

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. Will you please state your name, sir, for the record.

Mr. SCOGGINS. William W. Scoggins.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. SCOGGINS. 3138 Alaska.

Mr. BELIN. In what city and State is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old a gentleman are you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Forty-nine.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Taxicab driver, operator.

Mr. BELIN. For what company?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The Dallas Transit Co. I drive out of Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. You drive out of Oak Cliff?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; Oak Cliff, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Hillsboro, Hill County.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I went most of the time in McLennan County; most of my schooling was down in McLennan County.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school before you started to work?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Eighth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after school?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, while I was going to school, and that time we lived on a farm, you know, and then after that, well, that would be a hard problem there. I left home when I was rather young, stayed with some of my brothers some, and then done odd jobs around for quite a while. My first job, I guess you might say, would be automobile paint job.

Mr. BELIN. Automobile paint job?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, New York City.

Mr. BELIN. New York City. How long did you stay in New York?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I went back to Texas.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Done farmwork.

Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you do farmwork, approximately?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, after--let's see, my life was kind of mixed up. I have been around quite a while in different places and things. After I left New York I went to Connecticut to join the CCC camp and stayed there 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. CCC camp?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. And then I went back to Texas.

The first thing I done was open up a cafe down there and operated it about a year, and from there went to Waco and worked in a cotton mill, and then I moved back to west Texas to a little town about 18 miles out of Waco, and lived there, and done farmwork for a couple or 3 years, and then I moved to Dallas.

I think late in 1941, and I worked for Newhoff Packers in Dallas for 2 years, and then I went into the aircraft business and worked for North American approximately 3 years, and then I went into the contracting business for about a year, and went to General Dynamics, worked there approximately 15-1/2 years, and then I have been working for the company, taxicab company, for a couple of years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been driving a cab for 2 years?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, not quite 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. A little bit less than 2 years?

Mr. SCOGGINS. A year and 9 months. I don't know exactly when I started.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you driving your cab in the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, if you remember?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked up a gentleman at Love Field at approximately 12:35, I would say, and I discharged him at 1 o'clock at 321 North Ewing.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I went around by the Gentlemen's Club which I believe is 125 Patton.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I pulled up and parked at the corner of Patton and 10th and went back down to the club. At first, whenever I passed by, one of the guys hollered at me and asked me did I know the President had been shot, and I made the remark that I had not heard that one. I found a place to park and I came back, and he came back there in a couple of minutes and told me the facts about it. I thought it was some kind of a joke.

So I had to go plumb up to the corner of 10th before I could find a parking place, and I parked right there on the corner and went back and got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television.

Mr. DULLES. Would you speak a little louder, please; I can't quite hear.

Mr. SCOGGINS. I got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, I would say 10, 12, 15 minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch.

Mr. DULLES. What were you seeing on television?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The deal about the President getting assassinated; and when I got back to my cab and got my lunch, and, well, I noticed a police car cruising east there on 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your cab parked with relationship to the intersection of Patton and 10th?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was headed north on Patton, facing 10th Street, on the right-hand side of the street, right close to where the stop sign had been.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the right-hand side of the street would be the east or the west?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be the east side. I was headed north.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you on the north side of the intersection or the south side of the intersection?

Mr. SCOGGINS. South side.

Mr. DULLES. How near the intersection were you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Right near. They had a stop sign there and someone had had a wreck previously, I don't know, the sign was down. It was laying there, it had been bent over.

Representative FORD. Was this a normal stop for you, or how did you happen to be stopped there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I just went around just like I say. We can take our lunch hour anytime, you know; we can call in and say we are going to be out of service for lunch or for anything we might want to be out for, and that is what I had done.

Representative FORD. This was not a regular place where you waited for calls?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. You see the way we operate there, just where we discharge a passenger, then we call in and tell them where we are at on our radio, and if they have anybody in that vicinity who needs a cab, they give us their address, you see. Of course, now in the downtown area we do have stands to operate from, at the hotels, and then we have some stands at the medical buildings and the depot and the bus stations; and if we want to pick up there, we can pick up and we don't need to call in. But if we want to sit there we can call in that we are in this neighborhood. If they have got someone who has requested a cab, they give us the address, you see.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, showing you Commission Exhibit 528, I would like to ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; that is the corner where I was sitting right here, you see, on 10th.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to something in the front-center part of the picture. What is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. That is the stop sign that had been knocked over.

Mr. BELIN. That is the knocked-over stop sign?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What intersection is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Tenth and Patton.

Mr. BELIN. Now, we offer in evidence remarked Exhibit 527 and also Exhibit 528.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 527 and 528 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 523, which purports to be a plat, you see the streets of Patton Avenue there and East 10th. Do you see any number on that exhibit, Exhibit 523, which would indicate the approximate location of your car during the period that you are describing here?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it looks to me like this number 10.

Mr. BELIN. You are not pointing to number 10.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Eleven, isn't it?

Mr. BELIN. It is 11, and here is 9.

Mr. SCOGGINS. It looked like a 10 to me. Number 11.

Mr. BELIN. Number 11 is, you think, where you were with regard to----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Within the general area.

Mr. BELIN. Within the general area of Number 11 on Exhibit 523.

Now, Mr. Scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you stopped at your intersection. You had a coke and your lunch.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing, eating your lunch?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was in the process of eating it.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the process?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a couple of swallows out of my coke.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. What time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Around 1:20 in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Will you please state then what happened, what you saw, what you did, what you heard?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it cruising?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in front of yours?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the west, going east on east Tenth.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was--he stopped there.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. With relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of the police car, or kind of----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Just a little east is the best I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. He was a little bit east of the police car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was just a little bit forward. The police car headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end of the car.

Mr. BELIN. You thought the man was at the front end of the car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; approximately.

Mr. BELIN. But by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he on the sidewalk?

Mr. SCOGGINS. At the time I saw him; yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, I believe you said you saw the man's face, or did you not say that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't see the man's face from there. I saw the face when he passed the cab.

Mr. BELIN. What led you to believe that he was walking west?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, he was facing west.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he was facing west when you first saw him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was kind of facing that way.

Mr. BELIN. Was it due west the way the sidewalk was, or was it----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; west in relation to the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you see the man do?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him turn facing the street, and then I didn't see him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the police officer do anything?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him get out of the police car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see what side he went out of?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He got out of the driver's side, left-hand side.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Then he took about a step, I would say, or approximately one or two steps, and then I wasn't really--you know--I went back to my eating, and about that time I heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast.

Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall.

Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The policeman. I was excited when I heard them shots, and I started to get out--since we went back over there the other day and reenacted that scene, I must have seen him fall as I was getting out of my cab, because I got out of the cab, and in the process of getting out of the cab I seen this guy coming around, so I got out of sight. I started to cross the street, but I seen I didn't have enough time to cross the street before he got down there, so I got back behind the cab, and as he cut across that yard I heard him running into some bushes, and I looked up and seen him going south on Patton and then when I jumped back in my cab I called my dispatcher.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you jump out of your cab first when you heard the shots?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Because anytime that there is anything going on that is one thing the cab driver wants to do is to get away from that cab, because the man is going to try--if he had ever seen the cab, he looked back over his left shoulder, and I don't think he even seen the cab--he would have probably jumped in the cab and had me take him somewhere or maybe shot me, too, you know, and I didn't want to be around the cab at anytime while he was in the neighborhood, you know, when there was anything like that going on, or anything, robbery, or anything.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you saw the officer fall. Did you see where he fell?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he fell right by the side of the front, about, a little bit forward of the door, right about the door.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever later go up and view the officer?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I went up there, but by the time I got up there the ambulance had already got there. You see I got my dispatcher and was telling him about it, just by that time the ambulance got there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in the street to indicate where the officer fell?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There was blood there, of course. They picked the man up by the time I got there, the ambulance did.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? You were in touch with your dispatcher over your radio contact?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. What did you tell your dispatcher?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I told him there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and you see they have a number of cars they are talking to, you know, and I had to holler about three or four times before I got his attention, and then I seen I wasn't going to get through to him, so I just hollered there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and then they went to talking to me then.

Mr. DULLES. What did they say to you then?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The first thing they says is do they need an ambulance, and I says, "Sure." And they wanted to know the exact location, and I said right off east of 10th and Patton, and the ambulance was only a block and a quarter or so from the scene, you see, and they just come on right around there.

Mr. DULLES. And this conversation took you a minute or two, would you estimate?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, a couple of minutes, I would say. It was pretty close.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what the Commission reporter has marked, or what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 527, I ask you to state if this substance on the street here appears to be anything you had ever seen before.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the officer's blood, blood from the officer.

Mr. BELIN. Is that located in approximate location to this car in the same relative position that you saw the blood when you were there, or is it any different, if you know?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of excited there, a little bit, and I could be mistaken, but I was thinking he was a little bit closer to the car than that.

Mr. BELIN. You thought he was a little bit closer to the car than that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I thought he was, but I could be mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 529, which shows a picture of a car and appears to be some kind of a stain in the street, does that look to you any closer to the car than Exhibit 527, or does that look to be about the same place?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It looks to be about the same place as that one there does.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You thought it was a little bit closer to the front?

Mr. SCOGGINS. All right. I thought it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did the officer fall, did he fall forward or backward in any way?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He fell forward.

Mr. BELIN. He fell forward?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where his head was lying as he fell forward, if you know?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't be sure about that. He kind of fell in a crumpled manner, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the officer fall, when was the next place that you saw the man, or did you see him at the same time you saw the officer fall, the other man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I saw him coming kind of toward me around that cutoff through there, and he never did look at me. He looked back over his left shoulder like that, as he went by. It seemed like I could see his face, his features and everything plain, you see.

Mr. BELIN. Was he walking or running or trotting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Kind of loping, trotting.

Mr. BELIN. Kind of loping or trotting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Not in too big a hurry. It didn't seem like at first.

Mr. BELIN. At first not too big a hurry?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he change that at all?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Never did change his pace as long as I saw him. I don't know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did look and never did get to see him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did the pistol appear to be--did he appear to be doing anything with the pistol or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He had it, holding it, in his left hand in a manner that the barrel was up like this, and the stock was down here, curved back in here.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the gun had been flipped open at all or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I don't.

Mr. DULLES. You said he had it in his left hand?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see where his right hand was?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was kind of running, kind of like this, in this manner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the man say anything?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him mutter something like, "poor damn cop," or "poor dumb cop." He said that over twice, and the last, I don't know whether the middle word was "damn" or "dumb," but anyway, he muttered that twice.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say any other word or phrase?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else making any noise at about that time?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't. Of course, there were people coming up there, around there, but I didn't--I didn't notice any.

Mr. BELIN. Recently in Dallas you were asked to go to the scene of the Tippit shooting to try to reconstruct the positions of the various people at this time; is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, yes; I was over there----

Mr. BELIN. And you parked your cab in what spot?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There on Patton, facing 10th at approximately the place I thought I was parked at, the reasonable area where I thought I was. I wouldn't say I was exactly on that spot, but within a foot or so.

Mr. BELIN. Does Exhibit 530 appear to be a picture of your cab at that point?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I also hand you Commission Exhibit 531 and ask you if there is another view of your cab also at that same point?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; it appears to be.

Mr. BELIN. You were there when those two pictures were taken?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; I was there whenever they took some picture. I couldn't swear these were the ones, but I imagine it was.

Mr. BELIN. These are pictures numbered 7 and 22 in that sequence there. Mr. Scoggins, at the time of November 22, 1963, were there as many cars parked along Patton Street as appear to be in these Exhibits 530 and 531?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many on this side here.

Mr. BELIN. You are speaking now when you say "This side here," you are pointing to the east or west side of the street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. On the west side.

Mr. BELIN. There weren't as many on the west side?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many here as where the pickup truck is setting here.

Mr. BELIN. That would be down below the second or third car south of East 10th, is that right.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; on this other side it was taken up solid, and the only place I could found is here is the reason I come up here and parked, because the club is down here at this other end, and I would have taken the first parking place I found because, you know, the closest to the club.

Mr. DULLES. As far as you know, there were no people in these cars that were parked there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; there was no one in those cars.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people in any cars parked on either side of Patton Street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. None.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you Exhibit 162, have you ever seen any jacket on any person in that area of East 10th and Patton that looks familiar to, or looks anything similar to this exhibit, or does this appear to be lighter or darker than the jacket?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It appears to be a little lighter, but the sleeves look familiar all right, the type of sleeve. He had on a jacket, the type of sleeve of that, but I thought it was a little darker.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether it was a zipper or button jacket or don't you----

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I couldn't tell you that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of trousers the man was wearing?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The best I can remember they was dark, not too dark, and he had on a light shirt.

Mr. BELIN. A light shirt?