Part 44

Mr. BALL. That corner, all right. Take this pen and show your course down the sidewalk.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just draw it right on it?

Mr. BALL. Down to where you stood.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on the edge.

Mr. BALL. Is there a number there that shows where you were?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Near 5, is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. That is the northwest corner?

Mr. BALL. Northwest corner; that is the northwest corner. Here is a picture. Do you recognize that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is picture number 3 in the booklet. Does that show where you were?

(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 524 for identification.)

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the man shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark where you first saw him. Mark that A. Then he went which direction down the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He went this way.

Mr. BALL. In other words, he went in a direction--draw a line and then put an arrow showing what direction.

Mrs. MARKHAM. From here----

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on down the side.

Mr. BALL. Make a mark and put an arrow. That was the direction he was walking?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The police car had not come into sight yet?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Put an X where the police car was when you first saw it, put an X there and we will mark that B. Now, after the shooting, where was the man when you looked at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He turned and came back this way.

Mr. BALL. Where did he stand and look at you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. We will mark that C. Where were you standing when he was looking at you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The same position.

Mr. BALL. The same position as the girl shown on this picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is you there in that picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for the photographer to show him where you were standing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence the diagram in this book, together with the picture which illustrates the diagram.

The CHAIRMAN. Under what numbers?

Mr. BALL. As 523, which is the diagram, and 524, which is the picture.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 521-524 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. You went out there in picture number 3. Now, Mr. Dulles, I think this will explain it.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. I have some other pictures here that might illustrate. Do you recognize this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were here the time the picture was taken?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You told the parties where to put the squad car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the police car was when this happened?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The place at the arrow?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It shows a corner.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the picture make a mark where the man was when he came back and looked at you.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He was a little behind this.

Mr. BALL. Just make an X there in general.

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is supposed to be on the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Commission Exhibit 525. The X marks the position of the man who did the shooting on the corner after the shooting, and the arrow points to the squad car. Here is another picture marked 4 in this book which I will mark as Commission Exhibit 526. Is that you in the picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went out there the day the picture was taken?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you were standing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you saw the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you move from that place from the time of the shooting until the time you saw the man on the corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder, Mrs. Markham, if you would repeat for me, I would like to hear it, and Congressman Ford would like to hear it, the scene that you saw where the man now known to be Oswald went up and put his arms on the door of the police car, as I understand it.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Would you tell that once again. I would like to hear it again.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly walked to the car. He wasn't in no hurry.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask, was he called, were there any words that you heard?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I did not. I seen the police car stop.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the policeman say, "Come here," or anything of that kind?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. He might have done it, but you didn't hear it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. And the man went over to the car, put his hands on the window----

Mr. DULLES. The window was open?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Leaned over like this.

Mr. DULLES. Let me see. Was that on the right-hand side of the car, or where the driver was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was on the opposite side of the car.

Mr. DULLES. Opposite side of the car from the driver, yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. The window was down, and I know it was down, I know, and he put his arms and leaned over, I don't know what they were talking about, I didn't hear it. Then he stepped back in a few minutes, stepped back two steps.

Mr. DULLES. He stepped back two steps from the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the policeman--I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit----

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he wasn't angry.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one.

Mr. DULLES. And what happened?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just calmly walking to the front of the car and when he got even with the wheel on the driver's side, front, you know, that man shot him.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see him draw his revolver?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He shot him like this.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. BALL. Like this, you mean from the hip or from the waist?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. In the wink of your eye, before you could ever--just like that. It didn't seem like it bothered him, disturbed him.

Mr. DULLES. The policeman hadn't made, as far as you could see, any menacing gestures toward him? He wasn't trying to grab him or anything of that kind?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He was very calm, very. I would say like in slow motion, you know, like he was getting out to talk with the man, or go in the house for disturbance or something, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He shot across the hood of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Across the hood.

Mr. BALL. The policeman was in the street, walking in the street around to the front of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The policeman then got out on the opposite side of where Oswald was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I guess he was coming around.

Representative FORD. It appeared as though he was walking around the front of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had started around, and then he was going over to the man.

Mr. BALL. He had only reached the left front wheel though when he was shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And he fell into the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell into the street, his hat fell off his head. He didn't fall, just clumped down like that.

Representative FORD. Did the man with the gun move at all as the officer started to go around the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He didn't move. I mean, walked back or anything like that, no, sir.

Representative FORD. He didn't appear to run?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I didn't know anything was going to happen. If I had I would have kept walking, not walking, running.

Mr. DULLES. He had walked slowly around the car to meet the other man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman was.

Mr. DULLES. Slow?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there a pool of blood where Mr. Tippit fell in the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you this picture, Exhibit 533 (renumbered as Exhibit 527, see p. 321). Will you look at that picture and tell me whether it shows the approximate position where Mr. Tippit fell after he was shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell right out this way.

Mr. BALL. Look at the discoloration in the street. Is that anywhere near where Tippit fell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It don't seem to me it was out that far.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It seemed like to me it was over this way because he fell this way.

Mr. BALL. He fell this way? These people can't see what you are showing here. Here is the pool of blood. Which way do you think he fell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. See the wheel would be right down under here, back right this way. He fell this way.

Mr. BALL. Into the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, and his head was like this, you know, it was laying like this.

Mr. DULLES. Is this splotch out here in front of the car the pool of blood?

Mr. BALL. Out to the left.

Mrs. MARKHAM. It seems to me it ought to be here.

Mr. BALL. But there was a pool of blood?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will pass this out to the Commissioners.

Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mr. Ball, the place where you pointed, where you thought the pool of blood different from where it is shown on here was only a matter of what, a foot or two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; just about a little, back a little. It seems his hat was this way.

Representative FORD. So it is a difference of a foot or two, at the most?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Could you see the blood at this time or just see him fall? Did you actually see blood?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Did I actually see it, sir? I was there.

Mr. DULLES. I know you were there.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing over it.

Mr. DULLES. You were standing right over the officer?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. Just as soon as, just as quick as I could get to him; and the blood was coming from here like this and like that, in an oval shape. It did not splutter on his face too much, his mouth. It was here, coming out here.

Representative FORD. The blood was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just gushes. I had my workshoes in my hand. I laid them up on the squad car. I had my purse, which I can't remember where I put it, but this, I had a head scarf around my head, I had my coat on.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of these into evidence at this time, up to 526, inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be received.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 525 and 526 were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence, please. I must attend a session of the Court.

Mr. DULLES. I will, sir.

(The Chairman left the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, the police car, did the police car go beyond the man who was walking along the sidewalk, or did it stop opposite him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost even with him.

Mr. BALL. And when the police car stopped, did the man stop?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and walked over to the policeman.

Mr. BALL. The police car was going in the same direction as the man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And caught up with him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, do you know a man named Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I do not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of the name?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who says he was from New York?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case in behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. In an appearance before this Commission, a man named Mark Lane has testified this way. Let me read it to you. That was on Wednesday, March 4, 1964, Vol. II of a public hearing before this Commission, page 51. This is what he said:

"I spoke with the deponent"--he is talking about an affidavit that you made to the Dallas Police Department--"I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was 100 feet away from the police car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit."

Do you recall ever stating that to Mr. Lane or anyone else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. He testified: "She gave me a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." Did you say that to Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I don't even know the man.

Mr. BALL. Or anybody else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the man, is it your memory now that the man who shot Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. He wasn't too heavy.

Mr. BALL. Is it your memory that his hair was bushy?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It wasn't so bushy. It was, say, windblown or something. What I mean, he didn't have a lot of hair.

Mr. BALL. He didn't have a lot of hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that I could see. I don't even know that man; I never talked to nobody.

Representative FORD. You didn't talk to him by telephone or any other means?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you ever get an anonymous phone call from a person who asked you these questions?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, he also says, and he testified as follows:

"Helen Markham said to me she was taken to the police station on that same day, that she was very upset. She, of course, had never seen anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and in the police station she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit in the lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed Oswald out to her, and she said she was just shown four people, and she picked Oswald. She said when he asked her how she could identify him, she said she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and dark trousers."

Did you ever make that statement to him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or to anyone else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not to anybody.

Mr. BALL. When you identified Oswald--it was the number 2 man--were you told the number 2 man whom you identified in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I was not.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever told his name?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Ever told his name later?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Nobody, nobody told me nothing.

Mr. BALL. Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had seen shoot Officer Tippit?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on at that time in the lineup.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his eyes, and his clothing, too.

Mr. BALL. He said here you were able to identify him, Mark Lane testified that you told him you were able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket. First, did the man in the lineup have a gray jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on this light shirt, dark trousers.

Mr. DULLES. You have considered your answers very carefully, have you, on this point?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am doing my best.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, I know you are, and you are quite sure you never talked to anyone who purported to be Mr. Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Never in my life. I talked to two men, and this man who told me he was from Paris, France. He came down on my job. I was scared to death. I wasn't going to talk to him. I work for a Greek.

Mr. DULLES. Let's get this a little more clearly, Mrs. Markham. You say you talked with someone who came from France?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Did he represent a French newspaper?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know what newspaper?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He told--you see, I didn't understand this man, but my boss could.

Mr. DULLES. He came to you in the restaurant?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. And I was scared, which I was scared of everybody. I was upset and trying to work, too, and he was--he come to me and he asked for me and, of course, they knew who I was because I was there so long.

Mr. DULLES. When was that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall the date.

Mr. DULLES. Was it 2 or 3 days after the assassination or was it right after?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was quite some time after.

Mr. DULLES. Some time after?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. A week or more, maybe?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Representative FORD. Can you describe this man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he was dark complected, very nice man, black horn-rimmed glasses, black-headed, and he was build kind of----

Mr. DULLES. What did he ask you--excuse me.

Representative FORD. Was he tall or short, heavy set?

Mrs. MARKHAM. About medium, I guess. I didn't pay much attention to the man.

Representative FORD. Did he have an accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he did.

Representative FORD. Was it difficult for you to understand him because of this accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. This is what this man told me. He told me--he told my boss and my boss also told me, my boss stood right beside me.

Representative FORD. Did he speak in English with an accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. But this man told me the Government sent him.

Representative FORD. Did he identify which government?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he showed me who he was. He was a news reporter.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say whether he was a foreigner or an American citizen?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember. I was too scared. But he did show me his identification, his picture and everything. The Government had sent him to me, which he was coming to Washington. He was supposed to be here, and then back somewhere in Dallas, I think he told me.

Mr. DULLES. Could you recall the questions he asked you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He just asked me very few questions. This man asked me about if the police had taken me down to the police station and did I see anything after I went into the police station, hear any TV, or see any TV, any radio, newspapers, or anybody talked to me, and I said they did not.

Representative FORD. Did your employer listen to the questions and answers?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, James Gambolis listened to it.

Mr. DULLES. We will take a moment's recess.

(A short recess was taken.)

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, 1963, that is the day of the shooting, did you talk to an FBI agent named Odum? Do you remember?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I talked to some people, men, down at the police station.

Mr. BALL. That is right. He says that you described the man who shot Tippit as a white male, about 18, black hair, red complexion, wearing black shoes, tan jacket, and dark trousers. Do you remember that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never said anything about his shoes because I never did look at his feet.

Mr. BALL. Did you say about 18?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I said he was young looking.

Mr. BALL. Did you give that age, 18?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you say he had black hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You thought he was black-haired?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, that is what I told him. I thought he was black-haired. I remember saying that.

Mr. BALL. Red complexion?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, not red complexioned.

Mr. BALL. You didn't say that?

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Markham, did you say you talked to two persons, one person whom you are now describing from a foreign newspaper, and one other?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Who was the other one with whom you talked?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. He was a newspaper reporter by Life magazine.

Mr. DULLES. Life magazine?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I remember, which they did print the picture in Life magazine.

Mr. DULLES. And Life magazine printed what you told them?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And printed it accurately as far as you recall?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Very little of what I told him did he put in.

Mr. DULLES. What they put in was accurate more or less?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Representative FORD. It coincided with what you told him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just a little old paragraph or two.

Mr. DULLES. Except for those two persons, you don't recall talking with anyone about your testimony or your appearance in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just those two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Just a few more questions, Mrs. Markham. You ran immediately over to where the police officer was lying in the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. Was he alive?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was trying to, but he just couldn't. I just couldn't make out what he was trying to say.

Mr. BALL. Did some man come up immediately thereafter?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a car did he have?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not immediately.

Mr. BALL. Soon?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Soon.

Mr. BALL. In a pickup truck?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I very frankly remembered this truck, but I remember it the way it took off.

Mr. BALL. He stopped though, didn't he?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. What did he look like, the man in the pickup truck?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This man had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman.

Mr. BALL. A dark man, looked somewhat Spanish?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. I was screaming and crying and trying to get help, begging for somebody to help me.

Mr. BALL. When did you start screaming?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I started screaming by the time I left where I was standing and screamed plumb across the street.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said?

Mrs. MARKHAM. "The man has killed a policeman," I remember, "Somebody help. He has killed him, he has killed him," I was saying that, I was pulling my hair almost. It is a wonder he did not turn and kill me, really it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Scoggins?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't remember----

Mr. BALL. The taxicab driver.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I saw the taxicab driver.

Mr. BALL. Where was the taxicab?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Parked on Patton.

Mr. BALL. On Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the man later, did you see him before the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was sitting in his cab.

Mr. BALL. He was. Then you saw him afterward, didn't you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Those are all the questions I have of this witness. Do you have something additional?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Believe me, it was just like----

Mr. DULLES. I believe Mr. Ford would like to have the witness repeat what she saw the man, now known as Oswald, do after the shooting. Will you just repeat that for Congressman Ford?

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman----

Mr. DULLES. After he shot the policeman.

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman he turned around, came back around toward Patton Street. He wasn't he didn't seem to be in a no hurry. I thought he hadn't done anything, and he was fooling with his gun in his hands, and he seen me, and he stops.

Mr. DULLES. He stopped?

Mrs. MARKHAM. When he saw me. That is the reason we were looking at each other.

Mr. DULLES. He hadn't seen you before so far as you could tell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I put my hands over my face and closed my eyes, because I knew he was going to kill me. I couldn't scream, I couldn't holler. I froze.

Mr. DULLES. I think you testified about that then he began to run slowly.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Then----

Mr. DULLES. Was that after he saw you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; after I put my hands up, and when I had opened my fingers and my eyes and slowly pulled them down, he was trotting off.

Mr. DULLES. Trotting off?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He wasn't out of sight when I started running to this police car. He was not out of sight.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't see which way he turned at the end of this run?