Part 4

Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with the various materials?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.

Mr. JENNER. Who did that?

Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.

Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of luggage placed in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I could move, he put those in.

Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.

Mr. JENNER. With what?

Mrs. PAINE. Rumply.

Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which might have led you to believe----

Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no.

Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage?

Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including quite a small one, and the little radio.

Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag?

Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he first arrived.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you described yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.

Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one?

Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with you to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.

Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when your station wagon was unpacked?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.

Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package----

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. On that occasion, not until later.

Mr. JENNER. Not until later.

Representative FORD. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall it specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. And give us the best recollection you have when you first saw it.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my garage sometime in late October.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before that time?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never seen this binding until last night.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what appears to be some black binding?

Mrs. PAINE. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.

Mr. JENNER. On the edge of the blanket.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.

Mr. JENNER. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had always been on it, is that what you mean to say?

Mrs. PAINE. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.

Representative FORD. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the previous occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it closely.

Representative FORD. Didn't turn it over?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Didn't move it?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.

Representative FORD. So you only saw one surface more or less?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.

Representative FORD. But you didn't move it yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had returned to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing it there.

Mr. JENNER. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?

Mrs. PAINE. That is true.

Mr. JENNER. Now tell us--I take it from your testimony that the blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in the form of a package?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?

Mrs. PAINE. About like so.

Mr. JENNER. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.

Representative FORD. That is across lying flat.

Mr. JENNER. Across lying flat, thank you.

Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall from either that occasion or another that there were parallel strings around it.

Mr. JENNER. Tied?

Mrs. PAINE. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.

Mr. JENNER. How many were there?

Mrs. PAINE. 3 or 4, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. 3 or 4?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection now.

Mrs. PAINE. Is four.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than rationalization.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there were four.

Mr. JENNER. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something inside the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick up that package?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I never did.

Mr. JENNER. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not see anyone move it.

Mr. JENNER. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice that package in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be at all certain about when I first noticed it.

Mr. JENNER. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a different position or places in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall two places I saw it.

Mr. JENNER. And the first was where?

Mrs. PAINE. Over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?

Mr. JENNER. Bandsaw.

Mrs. PAINE. No, buzz saw.

Mr. JENNER. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.

Mr. JENNER. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat on the floor or was it upended?

Mrs. PAINE. Flat on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead you to step on it or feel it in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine tools.

Mr. JENNER. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.

Mr. McCLOY. I am trying to find it now.

Mrs. PAINE. That of course was taken more recently, but it is reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.

Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?

Mrs. PAINE. Very.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know when that photograph was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Underneath that box.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.

Mrs. PAINE. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was talking about, right here.

Mr. JENNER. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper middle section of the photograph.

Mr. DULLES. Is this the first location of the package?

Mrs. PAINE. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door or----

Mr. DULLES. The first location of it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Toward the front of the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you see it on the second occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under this box here.

Mr. JENNER. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this bandsaw.

Mrs. PAINE. On the floor.

Mr. JENNER. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being about the upper middle. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.

Mr. JENNER. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to the interior than its first location.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified as Commission Exhibit 429.

Mr. McCLOY. It will be admitted.

(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle being dismantled.

May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the package from end to end, and it does not----

Mrs. PAINE. Can you make it flatter?

Mr. JENNER. No; because the rifle is now in there.

Mrs. PAINE. I just mean that----

Mr. JENNER. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped package that you saw on your garage floor?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.

Mr. JENNER. Flatter than it now appears to be?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.

Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was of the length?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, definitely.

Mr. JENNER. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when you stepped on the package----

Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it.

Mr. JENNER. You always stepped over it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact with it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did it look about the way this package looks?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. When it had some cord around it, did the way it was tied pull it in or distort the shape?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't distort the shape.

Representative FORD. About the same shape even with the cord?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The cords weren't pulled tight?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were relatively loosely tied?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall this definite shape.

Mr. JENNER. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the contents of the package firm, is that your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in connection with the moving of the package?

Mr. JENNER. I did not intend to.

Mr. McCLOY. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he was----

Mrs. PAINE. Not until after the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. Not until after the assassination but before the assassination he had not complained about its being there or any difficulty in moving it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he moved it.

Representative FORD. Was he the person who used these various woodworking pieces of equipment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did he work in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat filled up.

Representative FORD. But during the time that you and Marina came back he didn't work in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. McCLOY. You had to step over the blanket to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. Or around it.

Mr. McCLOY. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move it in any way?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.

Mr. JENNER. There were only two?

Mrs. PAINE. Two that I recall.

Mr. DULLES. Only two.

Representative FORD. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the second one.

Mrs. PAINE. I touched it by mistake.

Representative FORD. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.

Mr. JENNER. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is the first location point at which you saw the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph there is a double X.

Mrs. PAINE. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.

Mr. JENNER. You mean in the photograph?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described is more accurate than the XX.

Mr. JENNER. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on it.

Mrs. PAINE. That is an accident with my hand.

Mr. JENNER. That was an accident on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So there are only two locations?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look at it?

Mr. McCLOY. You may.

We are back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which operates the rifle which forced it up higher.

Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the other had been.

Mr. JENNER. More in the form it is now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have ever seen it?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the strap.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of November in the police station that it had a strap?

Mrs. PAINE. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall it. I was interested in the sight.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit 139?

Mrs. PAINE. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Whether in your home or anywhere else?

Mrs. PAINE. Precisely.

Mr. JENNER. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, couldn't it, possibly?

Mr. JENNER. What about its shade, color?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be similar to that.

Mr. JENNER. Similar in shade.

Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?

Mrs. PAINE. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my recollection has there ever been.

Mr. JENNER. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. A whole roll.

Mr. JENNER. A whole roll?

Mrs. PAINE. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching to this wrapping?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the string that you normally used in your home for packages?

Mrs. PAINE. It was similar in weight, rather thin.

Representative FORD. Color was the same?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of the rolls I have is that.

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Not a rope type?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the lighter weight type and not----

Mrs. PAINE. And of the lighter color too, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And the lighter color.

Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags, they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When next was there--did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at any time thereafter?

Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already referred to.

Mr. JENNER. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?

Mrs. PAINE. 23d we left him in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct; no word.

Mr. JENNER. By letter, telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. Or pigeon.

Mr. JENNER. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. No word.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period about where Lee was or might be?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina discuss during that 10-day period?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall which was during that period or which was after; general conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?

Mrs. PAINE. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and their health. We talked about washing, about cooking.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood come and visit?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go to neighbors homes?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless----