Part 39

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction were you going, looking toward Exhibit 497, as you look on it, which direction were you going toward the left or right?

Mrs. REID. You mean as I came in the office? I turned in and turned to my left.

Mr. BELIN. That would be heading in a westerly direction is that right?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What direction was Oswald walking?

Mrs. REID. He was going east.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually walk through or coming through the door there?

Mrs. REID. He had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as I glanced up.

Mr. BELIN. He was stepping in as you glanced up?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had you ever--you said, I will put it this way, had you ever seen Oswald in that second floor office space before apart from the time of getting his pay?

Mrs. REID. Well, one other time he came in, now he might have been in to get that change for this time but I didn't see him going up there, and he made a remark to one of the girls back there and she said, "Well, he sure is calm." And I said, "What did he say to you?"

And she says, "I have a baby," and he stopped and I said, "Well, he is pretty calm just having a new baby," and outside of that I never remember seeing him other than to come in to get change.

Mr. BELIN. What about the other men in the warehouse, did they have occasion to come into that office space?

Mrs. REID. Occasionally they come up to get change.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from getting change or getting paid?

Mrs. REID. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It is some business for them.

Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch but I didn't even know his name.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know his name until they told us who it was.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?

Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?

Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?

Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?

Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Mrs. Reid, if a person were in the lunchroom with a coke on the second floor, and then wanted to get to the front stairway or front elevator, would there be only one route to get there or would there be more than one?

Mrs. REID. Yes; he could either go around this hallway, or back here in this hallway or he could have gotten through our office or----

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if in the first hallway you could mark route 1 there so we have it on 496.

Mrs. REID. Does it matter?

Mr. BELIN. That is fine.

Mrs. REID. You said the front stairway, too?

Mr. BELIN. That is the front stairway. You have put a number 1, I am going to put "R-1".

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. And that will be one hallway to go down to get from the lunchroom to the front stairway?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would there be another way to get there?

Mrs. REID. He can come through the office.

Mr. BELIN. You could come through the office?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Which is the way Lee Harvey Oswald was walking?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Would any one way be faster than the other or not?

Mrs. REID. It couldn't be very much faster because it is practically the same distance here that it is here and you have got this hallway there.

Mr. BELIN. So, either "R-1" or going through the office marked 29 would be approximately the same?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald is there kind of a pathway through there without any obstructions for desks?

Mrs. REID. Yes; there is, sort of a passageway.

Mr. BELIN. You passed at point what you have marked with an "X"?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is that correct?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. With an "R" and "X" to it?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you?

Mrs. REID. Yes; he did.

Mr. BELIN. Kept on walking in the same direction?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go?

Mrs. REID. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did after that----

Mr. BELIN. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in?

Mrs. REID. No; he did not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he went into the conference room?

Mrs. REID. Well, I wouldn't think he did because this door off here was locked and I had unlocked it for the policeman myself.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say was locked, and we will put--do you want to put in the word "locked" in there, if you would, please?

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. DULLES. On which side was it locked or did you take the key away, was it locked so that you----

Mrs. REID. I would go in from this way. I wasn't going in from our office into the conference room.

Mr. DULLES. And you locked that door?

Mrs. REID. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the policeman into the conference room.

Mr. DULLES. Did you take the key?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams.

Mr. DULLES. No; I mean after you locked the door do you leave the key in the lock?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. What I want to know is this, Mrs. Reid. When you came back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked "locked," was it locked at that time when you came in?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; it was to--it was locked when I got to it, I will say that.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Had you been the one who had locked it before or don't you know?

Mrs. REID. Oh, no, I couldn't say that because too many people used the conference room.

I would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked. The porter locks it in the evening.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

If one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the inside of the conference room?

Mrs. REID. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. Or the outside, either way?

Mrs. REID. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. Who has custody of the key?

Mrs. REID. I got that from Mr. Williams' desk, because that is where I got it from, and then the porter has one. I could not say. They all have the keys.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get it to unlock the door?

Mrs. REID. Well, by the time the policeman got there and started searching our floor. I can't recall whether I had taken him into the lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies' lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand in here that Mr. Cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one there.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been more or less than 5 minutes after you got back in the building that you opened the lounge?

Mrs. REID. That is where you all get me in this time because I was not watching the clock that day.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right.

Mrs. REID. Time really didn't mean anything to us because they, the police officers, just came in on us and began to ask so many questions.

Mr. BELIN. When you were at point "RX" and moving, if someone would have walked into the conference room would you have heard him in any way?

Mrs. REID. I could have heard him open the door.

Mr. BELIN. You could hear them open the door. During the time, the period of time you were there and saw Lee Harvey Oswald, did you hear anyone open the door to the conference room?

Mrs. REID. I do not recall any.

Mr. BELIN. From your best judgment, if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't go into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around between 27 and 28, how would he have gotten out of the office?

Mrs. REID. Right straight out this door down this stairway and out the front door.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying right down the hallway in the direction in which the arrow number 29 is pointing?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Down through the hall and down through the front stairway.

Have you ever talked to anyone there who ever saw Lee Harvey Oswald leave the building?

Mrs. REID. No; I haven't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge how he got out of the building?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not, I do not. I have no idea.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you notice whether or not the man you ran into on the second floor whom you now identify as Lee Harvey Oswald was carrying anything in either arm other than a coke?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was the coke full or empty?

Mrs. REID. It was full.

Mr. BELIN. It was full.

Was there anything else you noticed about him?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about the expression on his face?

Mrs. REID. No; just calm.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his clothes were clean or dirty?

Mrs. REID. Well, they were clean.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his hair was combed or mussed?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not. There wasn't anything unusual.

Mr. BELIN. You say he mumbled something?

Mrs. REID. He did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled?

Mrs. REID. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't interested.

Mr. DULLES. Was he moving fast?

Mrs. REID. No; because he was moving at a very slow pace, I never did see him moving fast at any time.

Mr. BELIN. He was moving just at his normal walk?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was wearing any pieces of jewelry like a watch or bracelet or ring or something?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not remember that.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you ever have any personal contact with Lee Harvey Oswald about such things as his paycheck or anything like that?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what hand he was carrying his coke in?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In what hand?

Mrs. REID. In his right hand.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, we thank you very much.

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, do you have a question, sir?

Mr. DULLES. How many times do you think you saw Mr. Oswald during the period he was employed?

Mrs. REID. My goodness.

Mr. DULLES. Roughly.

Mrs. REID. It couldn't have been----

Mr. DULLES. Five times, 10 times?

Mrs. REID. I would say five times. At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone.

Mr. DULLES. Never talked to anyone?

Mrs. REID. And he was usually reading, I noticed that.

Mr. DULLES. Did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or didn't you try that?

Mrs. REID. I never did try it, I never did.

Mr. DULLES. You never tried it.

Mrs. REID. He seemed to be interested in what he was doing, I would never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as I can recall, not any time.

Mr. DULLES. Who in the organization so far as you know would have handled his paychecks?

Mrs. REID. Mr. Campbell.

Mr. DULLES. Campbell would have handled his paychecks.

Mrs. REID. He makes them out and then he sends them to Mr. Truly and I am sure he distributes it to his employees.

Mr. BELIN. Two questions, Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. When we reconstructed your actions on Friday, March 20, which you said it took about 2 minutes, would you say that this was a maximum or minimum time?

Mrs. REID. Well, it wasn't any less than that I am sure because 2 minutes time----

Mr. BELIN. Did we kind of run?

Mrs. REID. Yes, we did, three times.

Mr. BELIN. Three times.

Mrs. REID. I remember that.

Mr. BELIN. And we were both huffing and puffing?

Mrs. REID. Yes, we were. I know I was that day, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, since the tragedy of November 22, have there been any discussions that you have heard among any employees which might relate to the character insofar as the personal habits or what-have-you of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. The only thing I have heard anybody say was he never talked to anybody, he always went about his business, that is the only thing I heard the employees say.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say that he might have been friendly with at least one other employee?

Mrs. REID. No; I have not.

Mr. DULLES. Did the employees discuss him at all among themselves?

Mrs. REID. You mean prior to this?

Mr. DULLES. Prior, during the period he was employed there?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. DULLES. At the Book Depository?

Mrs. REID. I never heard it.

Mr. DULLES. They did not discuss him in your presence, the office employees?

Mrs. REID. Well, the office employees and the warehouse employees are not connected. We talk to them, naturally some of them have been there a long time.

Mr. DULLES. Was it your usual practice to take lunch in the lunchroom on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Yes, it is; every day.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether it was Lee Harvey Oswald's usual practice or how many times possibly you saw him there at lunch with you and the others?

Mrs. REID. You mean did he come up every day? No, he did not.

Mr. DULLES. Would you think he came up half the days or could you give any--half the working days?

Mrs. REID. No; I wouldn't say he came that often. I can't recall seeing him up there but three times. We have said since then, since he sat there and didn't say anything and was reading we have often wondered what we discussed before him because we all have a general conversation every day at noon but I don't know we would have said anything that interested him.

But you wondered was he listening to what we were saying, I don't know whether he heard anything but he may have heard what we were saying.

Mr. DULLES. You, of course, knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee of the School Book Depository?

Mrs. REID. You mean by name before this happened?

Mr. DULLES. That the individual that you later knew was Oswald was one of the employees of the school book?

Mrs. REID. Yes, because I had seen him working in the building.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. Attorney General Carr, do you have any questions?

Mr. CARR. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. CARR. Have they been in there since that date to look over the premises?

Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her other than these pictures.

Mr. DULLES. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual practice?

Mrs. REID. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to drop by to see you they never have objected to that.

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.

Mr. DULLES. You want that admitted now?

Mr. BELIN. We want that admitted now.

Mr. DULLES. No objection. It will be admitted.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid.

We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Reid.

I will tell the Chief Justice of your cooperation and helpfulness.

We will reconvene at 2:30.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF LUKE MOONEY

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.

Senator COOPER. The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, whose testimony has been heard; Mrs. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination. Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination, and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas Theatre.

Officer Mooney, will you raise your right hand?

You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOONEY. I do, sir.

Senator COOPER. You are informed now of the nature and purpose of this inquiry.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you appear here voluntarily?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation?

Mr. MOONEY. I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in that job?

Mr. MOONEY. I have been on the force since February 1, 1958.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. MOONEY. Hopkins County, south of Brashear.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there?

Mr. MOONEY. I went to school at Middle Grove, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. MOONEY. I finished high school there.

Mr. BALL. And then where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, I finished making a crop--I was a farm boy. My father passed away. I started school at A. & M. and had to withdraw after my father's death, and come back home to my mother, because I was the only child at home. And later on I took a course in aeronautical work, at Luscomb School of Aeronautics, in Dallas, which is about--at that time was about 75 miles from my home, and finished the course, and worked for Luscomb in Garland, Tex., which is a suburb, or 15 miles out of Dallas.

And I worked there approximately a year before I was drafted into the U.S. armed services. I was 19 years old when I was drafted, one of the first.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service?

Mr. MOONEY. From 1942--I went in December, I believe it was, 28th, 1942, and got out February 20, 1946. I believe that is correct.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then, after that?

Mr. MOONEY. I returned home on discharge, discharged out of the services, honorable discharge. And I went to Dallas again, come back to Dallas.

After a short couple of weeks vacation, so to speak, I took a business course at Drawns Business College in Dallas.

I finished the course there and was employed at Johnson Brothers Chevrolet Co. for 10 years, approximately 10 years, as a dispatcher in the service department, in charge of the shops. And for 2 years I worked for an automobile financing company, Associate Investment Co.

And after 2 years of service there, I was employed by the Dallas County Sheriff's Office, because I didn't desire to be transferred out of the city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do for the sheriff's office?

Mr. MOONEY. I worked in the Writ and Execution Department, Civil Law, Writ of Sequestrations and Executions. That is my principal job. However, we do everything that comes down.

Mr. BALL. What do you call that writ?

Mr. MOONEY. Writ of Sequestration, or you might call it sequest.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What was your job on that day?

Mr. MOONEY. I didn't have a special assignment. Some of the officers did out at the Market Hall. I was waiting in front of the Dallas Criminal Courts Building, which is the sheriff's office, and we were waiting outside on the front steps there. I was down on the sidewalk, off the steps, on the street level, waiting for the motorcade to approach.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing there when the President went by?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I took my hat off.

Mr. BALL. That is on Main Street?

Mr. MOONEY. Right.

Mr. BALL. And that is----

Mr. MOONEY. 505 Main.

Mr. BALL. That is where the cavalcade turned north?

Mr. MOONEY. Made a right turn, yes, sir; on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. That building is about a block south on Houston, isn't it--south of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; it is a short block there.

Mr. BALL. After the President's car went by, what did you do?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, we were--we was more or less milling around. We just kept standing there, more or less talking to one another.

I don't know how many seconds had elapsed--it wasn't too many.

Mr. BALL. You say "we." Who was with you?

Mr. MOONEY. There was another officer there, Hiram Ingram--he is an officer, also, a deputy sheriff. And I believe Ralph Walters was standing there with me, and I believe there was a lady standing there, by the name of Martha Johnson, who is one of the judges' wife, a JP judge.

I believe Officer Boone was standing near us, also. And I don't recall how many more. There was a number of officers there.

Mr. BALL. What happened, as you remember?

Mr. MOONEY. After that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring out. At that time, I didn't realize it was a shot. The wind was blowing pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. I turned my head this way.

Mr. BALL. You mean to the right?

Mr. MOONEY. To the right; yes, sir. We were facing more or less south. And I turned my head to the right.

Mr. BALL. That would be looking towards Houston Street?

Mr. MOONEY. Looking towards the old court.

Well, when I turned my head to the right; yes, sir. I would be looking west. And there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear them very distinctly--between the first and second shot. The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot. Why, I don't know. But when that begin to take place--after the first shot we started moving out. And by the time I started running--all of us except Officer Ingram--he had a heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mr. MOONEY. Due west, across Houston Street, went down across this lawn, across Elm Street there--I assume it is approximately the location the President was hit.

Of course the motorcade was gone. There wasn't anything there except a bunch of people, a lot of them laying on the ground, taking on, various things. I was running at full speed.

Mr. BALL. When you ran across Elm, where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY. Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less of a little park.