Part 38

Senator COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you said?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly startled?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons you saw?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, you know, just with a sudden uprush.

Senator COOPER. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.

Senator COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple underpass to my left, all out behind this building.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your attention other than----

Mr. BAKER. Nothing except----

Senator COOPER. Crowd?

Mr. BAKER. There were people all over this track, over this triple underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, you know, going up.

Senator COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School Book Depository when you went in?

Mr. BAKER. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and Officer J. W. Williams was----

Mr. DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by myself. I didn't know where anybody went.

Senator COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out there at Parkland.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several other officers?

Mr. BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping out of their cars and running down the street toward him.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into the crowd at all or not?

Mr. BAKER. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting just prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer hunting?

Mr. BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.

Mr. BELIN. Is it a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action?

Mr. BAKER. Bolt action.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?

Mr. BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year.

Mr. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. From other rifles?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. In what way did it influence them?

Mr. BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.

Senator COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.

Senator COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.

Senator COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is?

Mr. BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles.

Senator COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be--I have heard that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me there was just a difference in them.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?

Mr. BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt action in about the same time.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third?

Mr. BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be--I don't believe it would be over 3 seconds apart.

Mr. DULLES. Over what?

Mr. BAKER. Three seconds apart.

Mr. BELIN. From each shot?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 seconds from the second to the third?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds?

Mr. BAKER. Not over 3 seconds.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERT A. REID

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Reid, the Chief Justice had to leave a few moments and he expressed his regret to you.

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. So I am presiding over the Commission at the present time.

As you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this morning has been to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, yourself, and certain others who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of the President, and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else you may know.

Would you please rise, Mrs. Reid, and hold up your right hand.

Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. REID. I do.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry forward the interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. We met in Dallas on Friday, March 20.

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, could you state your name for the Commission, please?

Mrs. REID. Mrs. Robert A. Reid.

Mr. BELIN. That is R-e-i-d?

Mrs. REID. R-e-i-d, that is right.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. 1914 Elmwood Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And are you originally from Dallas?

Mrs. REID. Well, I have been for quite a number of years. I was born out in a little town out from Dallas, Cereal, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you go to school in Dallas? Did you go through high school?

Mrs. REID. I completed high school there and I married and went to Waxahachie and lived there about 15 years and moved back to Dallas then.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any family, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. You mean like sisters or my children?

Mr. BELIN. Well, children.

Mrs. REID. Both, I have six sisters and I have two children and a grandchild.

Mr. BELIN. You have a grandchild?

Mrs. REID. And a husband, and a family.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. I am a clerical supervisor.

Mr. BELIN. For what company?

Mrs. REID. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. REID. I have been 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been a clerical supervisor all the time?

Mrs. REID. No; I started out in the department on what they call their postage desk and I was appointed to a clerical supervisor.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, I am taking you to November 22, 1963.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon or so?

Mrs. REID. Well, at 12 I went to lunch, and I had my lunch rather hurriedly so that I might go downstairs and watch the parade.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, you say you ate your lunch?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mrs. REID. In our lunchroom, in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that?

Mrs. REID. Well----

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mrs. REID. On two, the same floor as our office.

Mr. BELIN. That is on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch?

Mrs. REID. No; I brought my lunch.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who was there?

Mrs. REID. Well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies, goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but the general ones that usually eat there with me every day.

Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 497, is this room, this lunchroom, the one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers 25 and 26 in it?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And that is where you ate?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And on Commission Exhibit 497 do you work on the second floor also?

Mrs. REID. I do.

Mr. BELIN. In the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere in that room?

Mrs. REID. Over here.

Mr. BELIN. You say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked?

Mrs. REID. My desk----

Mr. BELIN. Your desk is near the dumbwaiter on Exhibit 497.

Mr. DULLES. That is the desk there, is it?

Mr. BELIN. That is the dumbwaiter.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?

Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.

Mr. DULLES. Where was your husband working?

Mrs. REID. He works for the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mrs. REID. Well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered across from our building.

Mr. BELIN. The records building has one side of it on Elm Street running from Houston to Record Street?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of Elm?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is that correct?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?

Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?

Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit 497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit there or did you instead go to the front?

Mrs. REID. No; I came back through the office.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't go through the door marked 24?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. You came out through this first door of the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you turned which way?

Mrs. REID. Turned this way.

Mr. BELIN. You turned to your left and went through the door which is between numbers 27 and 28?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497, and you went back to your office. Did you go by your desk?

Mrs. REID. I am sure I did because I usually leave my purse in there until I get ready to go out and then pick it up.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You walked toward the number marked 29 on Exhibit 497?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you walk?

Mrs. REID. I came over here and got my jacket and scarf out of the closet.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You are now pointing to the closet on Exhibit 497 which would be located on the east side of the building?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the front. Then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. I came and went out this door.

Mr. BELIN. You are, you went out the door which is marked on Exhibit 497 as room 200, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mrs. REID. I got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there is an elevator along the east wall toward the front of the building, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Is this a freight or passenger?

Mrs. REID. It is a passenger.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far this elevator goes or how high?

Mrs. REID. Fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor. You got on the elevator on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Came down on the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Then you came on the first floor.

Mrs. REID. Went out the front door of our building.

Mr. BELIN. Went out the front door.

Mrs. REID. I stood on the steps for several minutes.

Mrs. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. Shall I continue?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mrs. REID. Until I saw the parade coming around the corner from Main and Houston and when I did I walked out to the street so I would be nearer to the people, and I walked out and was standing by Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This was in front of the steps, ma'am?

Mrs. REID. Well, no; I had gone out directly in the front but I had gotten nearer to the street than the steps.

Mr. BELIN. You were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came by?

Mrs. REID. Yes; that is right. There is a part in there where our streets, one goes this way and one kind of goes off this way, and the line of parade they were going that way and I got right on the curb and was standing there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, turning to Exhibit 361, the top of Exhibit 361 faces south and this is Houston Street, here is the School Book Depository Building that I am pointing to.

Can you give any estimate as to where you were with relation to this, well, I will call it a peninsula of land between the parkway and the building.

Mrs. REID. You have got me turned around.

Mr. BELIN. The parade was coming along Houston.

Mrs. REID. I was standing about along in here, in here.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing a little bit to the north of the spot marked "B" on Exhibit 361.

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And you would be directly in front of the main entrance of the School Book Depository, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by "B" I am referring to, on Exhibit 361, I am referring to the pen ink--pen and ink "B" which is directly to the east of what I will call the traffic light on that peninsula of land as Elm goes into the parkway there. All right, what did you see?

Mrs. REID. You mean when I was standing there?

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I was naturally watching for the car as the President came by. I looked at him and I was very anxious to see Mrs. Kennedy, I looked at her and I was going to see how she was dressed and she was dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, I mean as far as they were concerned.

I did see Johnson, and that was it. I can't even tell you any more about the parade because after the shots I didn't know any part about that.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do after that?

Mrs. REID. Well, when I heard--I heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots?

Mrs. REID. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one because I didn't know the rest of them so well.

Mr. BELIN. Which one did you know?

Mrs. REID. James Jarman.

Mr. BELIN. You recognized James Jarman?

Mrs. REID. Yes; because I had had some dealings with him in the business part and I knew him. I couldn't have told you the other two at all because I didn't know them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that floor you saw them on?

Mrs. REID. Well, I wasn't exactly looking at the floor, I don't know, I would say a couple of floors up. I mean several anyway. I don't know exactly.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which floor it was.

Mrs. REID. I couldn't tell you because, you know, I didn't count the floors and I didn't count them, and I made the statement "Oh, I hope they don't think any of our boys have done this" and I had no thoughts of anything like that. I turned and went back in the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this then.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did you--did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?

Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?

Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?

Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?

Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you run into the building?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first.

Mr. DULLES. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. I went into the office.

Mr. BELIN. You went into your office?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."

He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first saw him?

Mrs. REID. Right here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway?

Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there?

Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29.

Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange?

Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were when you thought you passed him.

Mrs. REID. Here.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put for Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him.

On March 20 you and I met for the first time, didn't we, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. We sat down and I asked you to tell me what happened and you related the story. Did I keep on questioning you or did you tell me what happened?

Mrs. REID. Well, I more or less told you what had happened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then we went out on the street, did we not, in front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I surely do. It was kind of cool.

Mr. BELIN. It was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy.

Mrs. REID. Yes; it was; yes.

Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?

Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.

Mrs. REID. Two minutes.

Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.

Mr. BELIN. When you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop it there, right?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you met in the lunchroom----

Mrs. REID. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom.