Part 34

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15 minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.

Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said 5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be blonde.

Mr. DULLES. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room, did any words pass between you?

Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy.

Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me.

Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?

Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. No drink?

Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.

Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been running or anything.

Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any direction?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the lunchroom. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around towards his middle, almost touching.

Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going to take.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the assassination that he would take that route.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School Depository?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this affair?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make me feel that they might be connected with it.

Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or unidentified characters during his employment with you?

Mr. TRULY. Never.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know?

Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the building?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone.

Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a pushbutton type.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that telephone?

Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone.

Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now whether he had ever used it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any bundle?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where Officer Baker encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what?

Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take?

Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as near as I remember.

Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the stairs?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be.

Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald took?

Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the sixth floor stairs.

Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time to get from the sixth to the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not, because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we did see the elevators in those positions.

Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else go up to that floor and leave it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.

Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then sent it up to a higher floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.

Mr. BELIN. On both elevators?

Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only.

Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a little difficult?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his hand all through there and press one.

Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate--and then there was an outside gate slatted--slats about this far apart.

Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you, when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no cordon at that time thrown around the building?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer having been at the doorway at that point?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came from there because of the echo or what.

Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one of the back doors?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature--from the direction he was walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had everything stopped.

Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before you today, are they trustworthy?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have picked up very well. They are doing their work well.

Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.

Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal.

We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.)

_Wednesday, March 25, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER, MRS. ROBERT A. REID, LUKE MOONEY, EUGENE BOONE, AND M. N. McDONALD

The President's Commission met at 9:50 a.m. on March 25, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?

Mr. BAKER. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. I will read a little short brief statement to you, Mr. Baker, which will indicate the purpose of our meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination.

Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Depository Building shortly after the assassination and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas theater.

I read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the inquiry we are making today and we will make of you.

Mr. Belin will conduct the examination.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for the Commission?

Mr. BAKER. Marrion L. Baker.

Mr. BELIN. You are known as M. L. Baker?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BAKER. With Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BAKER. Almost 10 years.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Officer Baker?

Mr. BAKER. Thirty-three.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. BAKER. In a little town called Blum, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. BAKER. We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q. Mills School, elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you graduated from high school?

Mr. BAKER. I think I got married.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the meeting from this time on.

Excuse me, gentlemen.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the way of vocation?

Mr. BAKER. I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin Co.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for Continental?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 months.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford?

Mr. BAKER. Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months and they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance Vought at that time, aircraft.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford, sir?

Mr. BAKER. I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would call it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I was a material clerk.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't understand?

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for the aircraft company?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time it was uncertain out there whether you would stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. BAKER. I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little bit of everything there, I did all the road work, and did all the delivering at that time.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. BAKER. A little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. With the police department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a course of instruction for the police department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out there.

Mr. BELIN. How long was this schooling period, approximately?

Mr. BAKER. Four months.

Mr. BELIN. After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy, did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a patrolman or what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23 months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division.

Mr. BELIN. When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where two men would be----

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the last 7 or 8 years?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what?

Mr. BAKER. If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads.

Mr. BELIN. Were there some one-man squads, too?

Mr. BAKER. Very few.

Mr. BELIN. What about today, do you know what the situation is?

Mr. BAKER. They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of one-man squads now.

Mr. BELIN. They have a lot of one-man squads now?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Not because of the procedures?

Mr. BAKER. Now, at night they try to ride them two men.

Mr. BELIN. In the daytime what is the situation now?

Mr. BAKER. Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and the outlying squads are one man.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day?

Mr. BAKER. I was assigned to ride a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. At this particular day in the office up there before we went out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right beside the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. About when was this that you received these instructions?

Mr. BAKER. Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day, somewhere around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you receive your original instructions to ride by the side of the President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This is all made up in the captain's office, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Captain Curry?

Mr. BAKER. Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence.

Mr. BELIN. Were these instructions ever changed?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you why or why not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned there and we were moved by request.

Mr. BELIN. On that day, you mean?

Mr. BAKER. Well, that day and several other occasions when I have escorted them.

Mr. BELIN. On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to ride after this assignment was changed?

Mr. BAKER. They just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I believe he called it the press, behind the car.

Mr. BELIN. Beyond the press?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at the airport or was it before?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like it was after he arrived out there.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already seen him get out of the plane?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was it before the motorcade left that you were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or what?

Mr. BAKER. It was 5 or 10 minutes before.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the motorcade?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. It was a two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the motorcade got to Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. You say how fast?

Mr. BELIN. No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it going down Main Street at anytime?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets.

Mr. BAKER. Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour.

Mr. DULLES. There is a map right behind you.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Back on the record again.

Mr. DULLES. Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. There was a car right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7 feet right behind the President's car.

Mr. BAKER. That was the Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or what?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car.

Mr. DULLES. When you say "this car" what do you mean?

Mr. BAKER. That Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. The Secret Service car right behind the President?

Mr. BAKER. And there was one more car in there.

Mr. DULLES. Behind that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then?

Mr. BAKER. There were four press cars carrying the press and I was right at the side of that last one.

Representative BOGGS. The last press car?

Mr. DULLES. The last press car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at this stage?

Mr. BAKER. Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half block.

Mr. DULLES. A half block?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it was turning the corner at Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the expressway, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I believe--pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at from 5 to 10 miles an hour?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you take up your trip from there, please?

Mr. BAKER. As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there, which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance.

Mr. BELIN. How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as you turned the corner, if you know?

Mr. BAKER. I would say--it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we were just creeping along real slowly.

Mr. DULLES. That is turning from Main into Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You turned--do you have any actual speed estimate as you turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow?

Mr. BAKER. I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance.

Mr. BELIN. From what direction was the wind coming when it hit you?

Mr. BAKER. Due north.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street?

Mr. BAKER. As I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you did?

Mr. BAKER. As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight up----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were coming down Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, if you can--I plan to get that actual chart in a minute. If we could----

Mr. DULLES. I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the chart there.

Mr. BAKER. This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I got somewhere about right here----

Mr. DULLES. That is halfway down the first block.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute?

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as extended?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here.

Mr. BELIN. And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the north curbline of Main on Houston.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question entirely.

Mr. BELIN. In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else?

Mr. BAKER. It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for about a week.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?

Mr. BAKER. It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?