Part 33

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for identification.)

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; that is right.

Representative FORD. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in that southeast corner?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet or so away.

Representative FORD. May I ask--the job that Oswald had, how did you designate it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he filled orders.

Representative FORD. He was an order filler?

Mr. TRULY. Order filler.

Representative FORD. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled by each order filler every day?

Mr. TRULY. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give me the number each employee filled in that day, or several days in succession for a whole week.

Representative FORD. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I would not.

Representative FORD. You would have no way of checking that?

Mr. TRULY. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir.

Representative FORD. When an order filler fills an order, does he make his initial or mark on it?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which is layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under "C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends it on for packing.

Representative FORD. Well, it would seem to me that every order that was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified as to the individual.

Mr. TRULY. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day they are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of the checker. They don't put the date on them when they fill them.

Representative FORD. What I am trying to find out--is there any way to trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of November 22d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he was taken to the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; we could not tell whether he filled any orders that might be dated November 22d--might have been filled--if they were dated November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that he filled those on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on the 20th and 21st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not tell how many of those he filled on the 22d.

Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for the 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Just to take a survey?

Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take--we would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d--because we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated November 21st, he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or the 22d.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was there ever a clipboard found in your building at all?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that had two or three orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated?

Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found?

Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it?

Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employees?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever belonged to any particular employee of yours?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used to use. This is the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair.

Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you referring to?

Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while they will have 15 or 10 or something.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually filled that were found on the clipboard?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that were on there?

Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too much significance, I suppose--that the boy was just filling orders up there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. I have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know, about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone--the FBI or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question?

Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d, would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any way show when it was filled?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it. When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself--he puts the packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies, and then charged to the customer.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking on the errors the various boys made--maybe we have an unusual number for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making these errors.

Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't.

(At this point, the Chairman left the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or several weeks?

Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because--now, we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them. We have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the orders.

Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do not--our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did not receive it. But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have lost it, the boys have lost it.

(At this point, the Chairman entered the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you?

Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the orders and just forgetting about that part of it.

Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard to Bill Shelley?

Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser.

Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the clipboard?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits?

Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "C" where you think the clipboard was found.

I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was discovered--the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture, on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr. Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit--the number 35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was discovered.

Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard?

Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence.

Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background.

Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of Kaiser who found the clipboard.

Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who knows approximately when the clipboard was found?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute. According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December 2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission documents. It is Document 7, page 381.

But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser, which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or whenever we get to him.

Representative FORD. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. Back on the record.

Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly.

I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for identification.)

I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the second to the third floor, or can't you tell?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes.

Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps before you came down to get Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to walk in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you do?

Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the lunchroom that they can come through.

Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom, would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally operate it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is Rolling a company or what is it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth. They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you turn them over. It is something like--I know way back in my childhood they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and sentences and things they can put together.

Mr. DULLES. A square like dice?

Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in their reading.

Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons?

Mr. TRULY. They are very light.

Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10 Rolling Readers weigh?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten pounds.

Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506 inclusive.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through 506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the last time I saw him until November 16th."

Did I hear you say that?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on October 16th, the morning he came to work.

Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him until November 16th.

Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant October 16th.

The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning?

Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?

Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I believe--November 15th, or something like that.

Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as FBI, regarding him?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia and return from Russia?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly.

Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?

Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.

I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit--maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.

Mr. BELIN. Would you consider him of average intelligence?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.

Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor--from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.

Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?

Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day.

Representative FORD. On November 22d.

Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight. But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor.

Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them?

Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building.

Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe--still did not believe--maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just the fact that they were trying to get people's names.

Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You did not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name."

Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told the police?