Part 32

Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure I did.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey Oswald after you saw them?

Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me, does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?

Mr. TRULY. Not a thing.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying attention?

Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. TRULY. That is the interior of the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on Exhibit 499?

Mr. TRULY. East.

Mr. BELIN. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very foreground of the picture?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so.

Representative FORD. Which doorway would that be?

Mr. TRULY. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question?

Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom?

Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a movement, saw a man going away from him.

Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs?

Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going around, he saw a movement.

Mr. DULLES. And he followed that?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Representative FORD. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go into the lunchroom?

Mr. TRULY. He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No. 23.

But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until the other day.

Mr. BELIN. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom. Perhaps we can just briefly identify them.

Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state what this is.

Mr. TRULY. This is a picture of the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. What direction is the camera facing there?

Mr. TRULY. East.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for identification.)

Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the camera must be facing northeast.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502?

Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with Officer Baker.

Mr. TRULY. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker.

When did you find out what his name was?

Mr. TRULY. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was down to the building and you were interviewing him last week.

Mr. BELIN. This was on Friday, March 20th?

Mr. TRULY. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other names. But I never did try to find out what his name was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not.

Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that floor.

Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there.

Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down?

Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor. As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went from the stairs over to the east elevator.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?

All right.

Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?

Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little penthouse on to the roof.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up and down.

Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof?

Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell you why he wanted to go on the roof?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?

Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can remember? About where you thought the shots came from?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at the runways and the big sign on the roof.

He saw nothing.

He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I think"--let's back up.

I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, "Be careful, this man will blow your head off."

And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the building.

I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all?

Mr. TRULY. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said, yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't remember. I have heard so many things since, you know.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular incident you have related about the running into the building and up the stairs with this officer, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you to do all this, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street--pardon me--Houston Street, with a stopwatch?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and Officer Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with Officer Baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to the second floor. Do you remember that?

Mr. TRULY. I remember that.

Mr. BELIN. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run?

Mr. TRULY. We walked. We trotted.

Mr. BELIN. We trotted.

Did we get out of breath, do you remember?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that day with Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. I think so--which was a little more than a trot, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--I think we did it twice, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes. Between a minute and a half and 2 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in the morning.

Representative FORD. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. As far as I can tell; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I believe so.

We tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so fast at first.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that again?

Mr. TRULY. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering people aside in front of the building, so we possibly were slowed a little bit more coming in than we were when he and I came in March 20th. I don't believe so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because--I could not see the west elevator while operating the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just couldn't see it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon.

I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up there. I wasn't really looking for it, however.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator next? If you know.

Mr. TRULY. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time--somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?

Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not?

Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. He glanced over the sixth floor quickly.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor.

I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And then you got down eventually to the first floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?

Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.

Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.

There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.

So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.

First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.

Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?

Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.

So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?

Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?

Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?

Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here--"I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz."

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature--I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".

So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.

And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it."

And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.

There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird, or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect.

I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something out."

So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I didn't know at the time--I don't know how long they had the things.

Mr. BELIN. There has been some testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490, and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th?

The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor?

Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there?

Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years. They were there at the time of November 22.

Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will you state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the bins are located?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, it would be.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see over those bins?

Mr. TRULY. You cannot.

Mr. BELIN. I mean when you are at the window--say you are in the southwest corner.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new plywood floor around November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. This is it----

Mr. BELIN. This is north right here?

Mr. TRULY. They were in this area right here.

Mr. BELIN. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "W" at one end or the other. Would that be a fairly accurate----

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Where they were laying the floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is where they were laying the floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that they had moved books in the process of laying that floor?

Mr. TRULY. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that floor in several days.

Mr. BELIN. By that time, you mean November 22?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did it appear that they had moved them?

Mr. TRULY. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of cartons on the north--let's see--the southeast corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner of the building?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that were in the southeast corner?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't at that time--with the exception of a few cartons that were moved. But I did not know any pattern that the boys used in putting these cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or less at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the sixth floor as you saw it on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 503 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did those books go all the way to the corner or not?

Mr. TRULY. They did not in front of the window extend very much in height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Was this prior to November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them in front of the east window.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually kept on?

Mr. TRULY. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Approximately where?

Mr. TRULY. They were--I would say they were thirty or forty feet from the corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from.

Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark with your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have been any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you have marked on Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the plywood work, and they would--none of that stock was moved at that time for any purpose.

Mr. BELIN. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or large size?

Mr. TRULY. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that floor.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later on?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some boxes near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on two of the boxes they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the Rolling Reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on Commission Exhibit 483?