Part 31

Mr. BELIN. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No. 362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is located? This is the front of the building here at the top.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And also the withholding slip?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.

First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date?

Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What time did you get to work on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I came in, and spoke to him.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mr. TRULY. On the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am almost certain that I talked to him that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, or he might have had with you?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good morning, Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost certain I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him any other time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on, around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out on the floor that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?

Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or shortly after, possibly 12:15.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you go out to lunch?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to eat?

Mr. TRULY. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I----

Mr. BELIN. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president--and I had started out for lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate at several places around there.

It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory.

As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and watch the President come by.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. TRULY. This is the front entrance to our building.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction would the camera be pointing?

Mr. TRULY. Almost straight out from it. It would not be--well, it could be on a little angle.

Mr. BELIN. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or south?

Mr. TRULY. North.

Mr. BELIN. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495.

I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr. Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would.

Mr. TRULY. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along here somewheres.

Mr. BELIN. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I believe you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No. 361. The bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir.

And the top faces roughly south.

And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building--located at Houston and Elm.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter "T" the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position to watch the motorcade.

Mr. TRULY. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this way just a bit--that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area.

We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around, we probably pushed out even a bit farther.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you say that you are either at the spot marked by the letter "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards the south, towards the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.

Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe--we just gradually moved out a bit.

And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little farther to the edge of the parkway.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.

I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.

But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were--two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What did you next see with reference to the motorcade?

Mr. TRULY. Do you mind me----

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for you?

Mr. TRULY. It might be easier for the gentlemen when I point this out.

Now, what was the question?

Mr. BELIN. My question is what did you see with reference to the motorcade?

Mr. TRULY. All right.

We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston, heading towards the building?

Mr. TRULY. Headed towards the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. And it went on down this way. And immediately after----

Mr. BELIN. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway.

Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you see happen?

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see--I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.

I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think--words to that effect.

I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

But as I came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering, just moments later I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And that is--that just popped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me, if I can--turning to Exhibit 362 again, I wonder if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if you would--trace your route inside there. Point out the place inside the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is the stairway."

Mr. TRULY. I believe along right there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if you would.

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on Exhibit 495, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, he said to you what?

Mr. TRULY. Where is the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you say to him?

Mr. TRULY. I said "This way."

Mr. BELIN. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would, sir--starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362.

Mr. TRULY. I ran in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. You better mark on the exhibit, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter, what we call our will call counter right here.

Mr. BELIN. Is it here, or here?

Mr. TRULY. No, wait a minute.

There--right here. We came in this way.

Mr. BELIN. Do you still want to put point "T" up here?

Mr. TRULY. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am sure he asked me.

Mr. BELIN. You better cross out the other one, then.

Mr. TRULY. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the main door?

Now, you have point "T."

Now, will you trace the route from point "T"?

Mr. TRULY. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut inside--this is where our customers come that pick up books.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of the glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. You call that the will call counter?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What happened when you got there?

Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door, and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman ran into my back. And so I just pulled it back and continued on through.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck by the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and pull the door back and go through it.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on Exhibit 362, showing the route.

All right.

Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you have come to the west elevator in the rear.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you go up those stairs, instead of running to the back?

Mr. TRULY. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the back stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the northwest corner?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This elevator over here----

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one?

Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator--as far as I can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time.

This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a button.

Representative FORD. Which elevator is that?

Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down.

Representative FORD. That is the east elevator?

Mr. TRULY. The east elevator?

There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed----

Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for "button."

Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.

I called upstairs "Turn loose the elevator."

Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?

Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.

Mr. BELIN. What did you call?

Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator."

Those boys understand that language.

Mr. BELIN. What does that mean?

Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down.

Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that?

Mr. TRULY. Two times.

Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice, I believe, and called up for the elevator twice.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

First of all, did the elevator come down?

Mr. TRULY. It did not.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which way you went?

All right.

Mr. TRULY. What is this here?

Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time?

Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.

By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know.

Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then?

Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third floor, and on up.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you say you ran on to your left, did you look straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were you intent on just going upstairs?

Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen him on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways continued.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Exhibit 497.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 497, for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. This is entitled "Texas School Book Depository, Diagram of Second Floor."

You can sit down, if you would, please, Mr. Truly.

And would you, on Exhibit 497, if you would kind of take an arrow to show the route that you took going out--or up from the first floor, and starting up the stairs towards the third.

Now, you marked that with pen.

Could you put a "T" on that, if you would, please?

Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this completely clear, or are there books there from time to time?

Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where this 22 is. You can always clear it and come by there. I don't think there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the other area across there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 498 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know what this is.

Mr. TRULY. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the stairs on the second floor--this is what you will find right there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, as you take a look at the picture Exhibit 498, is this a post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left of the picture?

Mr. TRULY. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is this, to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the staircase?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or what is shown there?

Mr. TRULY. It appears to be pointing east.

Mr. BELIN. And I see a door with a glass in it.

Could you show where on this diagram Exhibit 497 this door with the glass is?

Do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door?

Mr. TRULY. That is it.

Mr. BELIN. What number is that?

Mr. TRULY. It is number 23.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.

Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside--he was just inside the lunchroom door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

All right.

You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.

What did you see or hear the officer say or do?

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey Oswald when he asked the question?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it was almost touching him.

Mr. BELIN. What portion of his body?

Mr. TRULY. Towards the middle portion of his body.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see----

Mr. TRULY. I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way.

Mr. BELIN. When you say you were looking in the room on an angle----

Mr. TRULY. What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door.

Mr. BELIN. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door No. 24?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either hand?

Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands?