Part 29

Mr. JARMAN. Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.

Mr. BALL. It would be the fourth window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you then?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; a few minutes later.

Mr. BALL. Who joined you?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. And where did he stand or sit?

Mr. JARMAN. He took the window next to Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is 480, a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Can you show me the window before which you were standing and out of which you were looking?

Mr. JARMAN. This window here.

Mr. BALL. It is marked W on this picture. Where was Harold Norman, the window out of which Harold Norman was looking?

Mr. JARMAN. He was first right here.

Mr. BALL. That is the one marked with a red arrow?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams was in this one.

Mr. BALL. Next to the window of Norman, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was----

Mr. BELIN. What exhibit is that?

Mr. BALL. That is 480. This is 482. You recognize those two pictures?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who are they?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. Now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the Texas State School Book Depository with me and a photographer, and had your picture taken, did you not?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what did I ask you to do before the picture was taken?

Mr. JARMAN. To try to get in the same position that we were the day the assassination was.

Mr. BALL. And did you do that?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. We tried to the best of our knowledge.

Mr. BALL. I have a picture here I would like to have marked as Commission Exhibit 494.

Mr. McCLOY. It is so marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 494 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Taken last Friday afternoon, March 20th, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now does it or does it not show your position at about the time, as you were watching the President's motorcade go by?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; that is the position I had as it was going by.

Mr. BALL. You are on your knees?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show this to each member of the Commission. This is a new exhibit. 485, you recognize that picture?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What does it show?

Mr. JARMAN. It shows that I was on my knees as the motorcade was passing.

Mr. BALL. And shows the other two men?

Mr. JARMAN. As the motorcade was passing.

Mr. BALL. It shows their position?

Mr. JARMAN. At the time.

Mr. BALL. At the time the motorcade was passing?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. BALL. This has been introduced into evidence. I don't believe you have seen that, Congressman.

Representative FORD. This is yourself here?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. The one closest to an individual looking at the photograph.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After the motorcade passed, what happened?

Mr. JARMAN. After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it was a backfire.

Mr. BALL. You thought it was what?

Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one.

Mr. BALL. Were you still on your knees looking up?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I ran over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President.

Mr. BALL. And then did they say anything?

Mr. JARMAN. Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway.

Mr. BALL. He had some white what, like plaster?

Mr. JARMAN. Like some come off a brick or plaster or something.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything else that you remember?

Mr. JARMAN. He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection or anything like that, do you remember?

Mr. JARMAN. That was after we got down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. After you got down where?

Mr. JARMAN. To the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Down the west side?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And when you were up there you showed me the window to which you ran, didn't you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of you at that place?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you ran down there was the window open or closed?

Mr. JARMAN. It was closed.

Mr. BALL. And who opened it?

Mr. JARMAN. I did.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you opened the window?

Mr. JARMAN. I leaned out and the officers and various people was running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things.

Mr. BALL. I show you 488. What does that show?

Mr. JARMAN. That shows me leaning out the window and Bonnie Ray and Harold Norman was over to the side of me.

Mr. BALL. What window?

Mr. JARMAN. The window on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you looked out that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to run to that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I wanted to see what was going on mostly, because that was after the motorcade car had took off, and I thought they had stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. So they went on around the bend, and after I couldn't see from there I ran to another, the second window.

Mr. BALL. That second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last Friday, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the picture was taken of that, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that window is on which side?

Mr. JARMAN. On the west side of the building also.

Mr. BALL. I show you 489. Is that a picture of the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see when you looked out that window?

Mr. JARMAN. When I looked out that window, I saw the policemen and the secret agents, the FBI men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger train and things like that.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard Harold Norman say something that he had heard cartridges?

Mr. JARMAN. All that took place right here in this corner after we had went to this window.

Mr. BALL. This corner. What corner do you mean?

Mr. JARMAN. In the corner of the building right after we had looked out this window.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Mr. JARMAN. Right here on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the building?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And would that be the window that is shown in 488, or the window that is shown in 489?

Mr. JARMAN. It was between the two windows.

Mr. BALL. Between the two?

Mr. JARMAN. As we was going to this window.

Mr. BALL. To that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear him say?

Mr. JARMAN. He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, as it were pulled back, or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard anything like that?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any person running upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or any steps upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Any noise at all up there?

Mr. JARMAN. None.

Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram which is 487. This is the southeast corner of the building on this diagram. Do you recognize that?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is the Elm Street side?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you point out the window to which you three boys ran when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towards the----

Mr. JARMAN. This one here.

Mr. BALL. The one marked Y on this diagram?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. This one right here.

Mr. BALL. That one marked Y.

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?

Mr. JARMAN. I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one marked Z?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. JARMAN. Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.

Mr. BALL. They block your view?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you could see from Z?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture, 491. Do you remember standing in line near the stairwell?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is you on the end, isn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. On the end, the farthest from the stairwell?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And we took a picture, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of that area. Does that show the bins?

Mr. JARMAN. That shows the bins.

Mr. BALL. I am now referring to 492.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see when you were along this west wall?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the elevators?

Mr. JARMAN. I imagine if I had looked over, but I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you were standing there at the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Looking toward the railroad track?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember seeing Mr. Truly?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you see a motorcycle officer come up?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you hear the elevator go up?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you men do after you looked out the window toward the railroad tracks from the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd better get the hell from up here.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. JARMAN. Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had gone down.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we paused a few minutes on four.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you run to?

Mr. JARMAN. To the elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL. On the west. That wasn't there?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the first one I seen was Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. Eddie Piper works there, does he?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who else did you see?

Mr. JARMAN. And I ran into Roy Edward Lewis, which is also another employee.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else there?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door.

Mr. BALL. You ran to the front door?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; and out on the street.

Mr. BALL. You and who?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. You and Harold went out there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him first?

Mr. JARMAN. He was talking to a police officer.

Mr. BALL. How was he dressed?

Mr. JARMAN. He was dressed in construction clothes.

Mr. BALL. Anything else, any other way to describe him?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.

Mr. BALL. Hard-hat?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay out there very long?

Mr. JARMAN. Just a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. We heard him talking to this officer about that he had heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the building also, and then he rushed us back inside.

Mr. BALL. The officer did?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you know this fellow was Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, at that time I didn't know him at all.

Mr. BALL. Have you learned that since?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who told you that the man in the hard-hat was Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have had him down there at the building a couple of times.

Mr. BALL. Were you taken to the police station?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a statement?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. JARMAN. That Saturday morning.

Mr. BALL. The next day?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the building, the Texas School Book Depository Building that afternoon?

Mr. JARMAN. I'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when they turned us loose and told us to go home.

Mr. BALL. When you were there did you notice whether any of the employees were missing?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When did you notice, and who was missing?

Mr. JARMAN. When we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen Lee Oswald, and they said no.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody else missing?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who.

Mr. JARMAN. Charles Douglas Givens, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Charles Givens?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. JARMAN. I can't recall.

Mr. McCLOY. Had Givens been in the Depository that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; he had.

Mr. McCLOY. He had been there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Givens come back later?

Mr. JARMAN. He didn't come back to the building until they picked him up.

Mr. BALL. He did come back to the building before you left, did he?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. He didn't?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was not there when you left?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were fired?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. In other words, if there was noise up there--let's put it this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you listen for any?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was?

Mr. JARMAN. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a minute.

Mr. McCLOY. You have had military experience, haven't you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started toward the freeway underpass.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. I saw him lean his head.

Representative FORD. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That is a distinct impression?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Representative FORD. Had your eye on the car all the time?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought.

Representative FORD. As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President's car.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?

Mr. JARMAN. I am sure it came from the left.

Representative FORD. But your first reaction, that is was from below.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they all sounded just about the same.

Representative FORD. You distinctly recall three shots?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And at what point did you get up from where you were on your knees in the window?

Mr. JARMAN. When the motorcar picked up speed.

Representative FORD. Was this after what you thought was the third shot?

Mr. JARMAN. The third shot; yes.

Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a gunshot, either one of the three?

Mr. JARMAN. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my mind then.

Representative FORD. When did you first learn of the President's motorcade route?

Mr. JARMAN. That morning.

Representative FORD. Friday morning, November 22d?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How did you find out about it?

Mr. JARMAN. The foreman of the employees on the first floor.

Representative FORD. What is his name?

Mr. JARMAN. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee.

Representative FORD. To Mrs. Lee?

Mr. JARMAN. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out there and see him pass.

Representative FORD. About what time Friday morning was this?

Mr. JARMAN. I imagine it would be about--I think it was between 8:30 and 9:00. I am not sure.

Representative FORD. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night before or that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with Lee Oswald, where he asked you--you told him that the motorcade was coming by the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JARMAN. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30.

Representative FORD. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or Mrs. Lee talk?

Mr. JARMAN. Discuss it--yes.

Representative FORD. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the conversation and tell Oswald of the route?

Mr. JARMAN. He asked me.

Representative FORD. What was his reaction?

Mr. JARMAN. After I had told him the route that the President probably would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders.

Representative FORD. You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.

Representative FORD. But in front of the building?

Mr. JARMAN. In front of the building.

Representative FORD. Then you said you went around the building.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?

Mr. JARMAN. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.

Representative FORD. Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?

Mr. JARMAN. Right here.

Representative FORD. In which direction did you go then?

Mr. JARMAN. This way.

Representative FORD. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And where did you get on the elevator?

Mr. JARMAN. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.

Representative FORD. How could you tell this elevator was at six?

Mr. JARMAN. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.

Representative FORD. You could see it was on six?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. This was about what time?

Mr. JARMAN. That was about 12:25 or 12:28.

Representative FORD. You got off the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work? Do you remember that?

Mr. JARMAN. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants?

Mr. JARMAN. Some kind of these slacks you wear.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt?

Mr. JARMAN. Ivy leagues, I believe.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt, do you know?

Mr. JARMAN. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle or package of any kind?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the shots came from up above you?

Mr. JARMAN. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop on the floor."

And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?

Mr. JARMAN. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.

And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Are you a married man?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a family?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; three children.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all.

Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. JARMAN. We are glad to do it.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who testifled this morning here?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.