Part 28

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."

Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Mr. BALL. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of the rifle?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I heard them making a sound.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer this into evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers to the bolt action?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Those are the same things?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is what I mean.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what you meant by that?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What language did you use when you talked to the Secret Service man, do you know? Did you say you heard the ejection or that you heard the bolt action? Which did you use?

Mr. NORMAN. I probably said the ejection.

Mr. BALL. That is what you think you said?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The same thing you said here?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember Friday that we conducted an experiment to see whether or not you could hear?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where did you put yourself in order to conduct the experiment?

Mr. NORMAN. In the same window. I may not have been in the same position but I was in the same window.

Mr. BALL. The same window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that window was open?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; they told me it was open. I didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't he?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle or whatever he had up there.

Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor, hasn't there?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The day that you were there on November 22, what was the condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. I would say that you could see daylight through there because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the plywood, some portion of the plywood, so I would say you could see a little daylight during that time.

Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling?

Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering through the crack.

Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. Could you see daylight through there?

Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight.

Mr. BALL. Now the day of the experiment last Friday when you heard the cartridges eject, the bolt action and the cartridges ejecting----

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there any noise outside?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. What was it?

Mr. NORMAN. There was a train and there were trucks and cars.

Mr. BALL. Was there more noise or less noise on the day you conducted the experiment last Friday, March 20, than on November 22, at 12:30?

Mr. NORMAN. It was more noise last Friday than it was November 22.

Mr. BALL. Was there any train going by on November 22?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there any trucks going by on November 22?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. How did you get your job at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, as I remember the time that I told you before I used to live in Salina and washing cars at the Chevrolet company I had a friend that lived in Dallas and he was working down there, and he told me that he thought that I could get a job down there, and that is how I got familiar with the place. I did go by there and Mr. Truly gave me a job.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you getting better pay there than you had at your former job?

Mr. NORMAN. At the Chevrolet company?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I was getting better pay there.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?

Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the--did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.

Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have any other questions.

Mr. BALL. I have one question.

On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You remember?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. Did you tell him that?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't recall telling him that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the window.

Mr. BALL. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you remember telling him that?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you ever been convicted of a crime?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there where the shots were coming from there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Not until after----

Mr. McCLOY. After the assassination?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time.

Mr. BELIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?

Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.

Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.

Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.

Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.

The CHAIRMAN. You had to go back?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you went out in front?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then came back?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After you had gone to the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did law enforcement officers make you go back or did you do it on your own initiative?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember, I don't know if this is the only time or not, but I remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from the building and I can't remember if that is the time we went back in the building or before or what.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go out with?

Mr. NORMAN. I know James Jarman and I went out. I can't remember.

Representative FORD. May I ask did we get into the testimony enough of his background and biography?

Mr. BALL. Clear from where he was born, through high school and all his jobs through high school.

He is 26 years old, married, and never been in any trouble in his life. I think that is all.

Mr. McCLOY. Thank you, Mr. Norman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES JARMAN, JR.

Mr. BELIN. Chief Justice Warren, this is Mr. Jarman.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you do. Glad to see you.

Mr. BELIN. Congressman Ford----

Mr. McCLOY. Would you hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JARMAN. I do.

Mr. BALL. The statement has been read to you as to the purpose of your examination before the Commission?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Hasn't it, Mr. Jarman?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please?

Mr. JARMAN. James Jarman, Junior.

Mr. BALL. What do they call you, Junior?

Mr. JARMAN. Junior.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. JARMAN. 4930 Echo.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. JARMAN. 34.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. JARMAN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Have you lived there all your life?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. BALL. You still live there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you go to school in Dallas?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. JARMAN. To the 10th grade and went to California in 1947 and stayed there for about a year.

Mr. BALL. What did you do in California?

Mr. JARMAN. I was living with my aunt at the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you work?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I was still in school.

Mr. BALL. What school did you go to?

Mr. JARMAN. Alameda High.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you came back, after you left California?

Mr. JARMAN. I came back to Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school any more?

Mr. JARMAN. No, I went into service.

Mr. BALL. What year did you go in the service?

Mr. JARMAN. 1948.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service?

Mr. JARMAN. I was in the service up until 1952.

Mr. BALL. What service?

Mr. JARMAN. U.S. Army.

Mr. BALL. And did you enlist in 1948?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Enlisted?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did 4 years in the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you receive an honorable discharge from the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. I came out and stayed out for about until July of 1953.

Mr. BALL. Then what?

Mr. JARMAN. And reenlisted in the service again.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the Army this time?

Mr. JARMAN. Until 1956.

Mr. BALL. And were you discharged then?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, I was.

Mr. BALL. Did you get an honorable discharge?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I started working at the Texas School Book Depository for about 2 months after.

Mr. BALL. After you got out of the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are still there; are you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there any period of time since 1956 to 1964 that you didn't work there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many times?

Mr. JARMAN. I started in 1956. I worked from August up until November, and I was laid off until December the same year and I started back again and I worked up until 1958 I believe, 1958 or 1959, and I quit there and went to Parkland Hospital. From there I went back to the Depository. And I got laid off again and I went to Bakers Hotel, and I think it was in 1961 I went back to the Depository and I have been there ever since.

Mr. BALL. What was your job at the Depository in November of 1963, last fall?

Mr. JARMAN. Checker.

Mr. BALL. What does a checker do?

Mr. JARMAN. He checks various orders, books and things that go out to different schools.

Mr. BALL. Do the order fillers bring the books down to where you have your----

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. On a table. You have a table?

Mr. JARMAN. I have a table with a scale and I weigh these books up and put the upholstery on them and put them on a little conveyor and the wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN. Only as a coworker.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him while he was working there?

Mr. JARMAN. I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is about all.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him about politics?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Religion?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Anything at all?

Mr. JARMAN. Not until November the 22d.

Mr. BALL. Not until that day?

Mr. JARMAN. Not until that day.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald have any friends there?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with every day?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the time or bought his lunch most of the time?

Mr. JARMAN. Most of the time he brought his lunch.

Mr. BALL. Most of the time he brought his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, occasionally. I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. I don't understand.

Mr. JARMAN. I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch.

Mr. BALL. There is a catering service that comes by the building every morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service?

Mr. JARMAN. I think once or twice he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. JARMAN. Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over by the coffee table where they make coffee.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. That is the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Now on November 22, what time did you get to work?

Mr. JARMAN. About 5 minutes after 8.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there when you got there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him the first time?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was on the first floor filling orders.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch that day?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What did you do about lunch that day?

Mr. JARMAN. I got a sandwich off the carrying truck.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. JARMAN. It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Where did you put it, keep it until lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. In the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Where in the domino room?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of windows in there and I put it in the window.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. JARMAN. I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Oh, approximately. Nine, ten?

Mr. JARMAN. It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say.

Mr. BALL. Between 8 and 9?

Mr. JARMAN. Between 5 minutes after 8 and 9.

Mr. BALL. You had him correct an order?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. JARMAN. It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to him?

Mr. JARMAN. In between two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor.

Mr. BALL. And what was said by him and by you?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm.

Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you quit for lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Went in the rest room and washed up.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.

Mr. BALL. Where is the lounge?

Mr. JARMAN. On the second floor.

Mr. BALL. On the second floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?

Mr. JARMAN. Came back and went down to the window.

Mr. BALL. What window?

Mr. JARMAN. Where Oswald and I was talking.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. JARMAN. Between those two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL. Where Oswald and you had been talking?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do there?

Mr. JARMAN. I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.

Mr. BALL. You say you ate the rest of it when?

Mr. JARMAN. Walking around on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. Did you sit down at the window when you ate part of your sandwich?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I was standing.

Mr. BALL. And did you have the pop in your hand, too?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I had a sandwich in one hand and pop in the other.

Mr. BALL. You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I wasn't. I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. Then I went out in front of the building.

Mr. BALL. With who?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.

Mr. BALL. You say Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember him going with you?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.

Mr. BALL. What about Billy Lovelady?

Mr. JARMAN. I didn't go out with them. They came out later.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Billy Lovelady out there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. JARMAN. Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?

Mr. JARMAN. I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the sidewalk or curb?

Mr. JARMAN. On the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. BALL. Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Truly?

Mr. JARMAN. He wasn't standing close to me.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was he with?

Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. JARMAN. O. V. Campbell.

Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?

Mr. JARMAN. They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.

Mr. BALL. You left there, didn't you, and went some place?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and myself.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go through and cross the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway there, so we decided to go around.

Mr. BALL. You went in the back door?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you take an elevator or the stairs?

Mr. JARMAN. We took the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. JARMAN. The west side elevator.

Mr. BALL. That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. To the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. We just decided to go to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.

Mr. BALL. When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.

Mr. BALL. Which windows did you raise?