Part 26

Representative FORD. But it was not until Friday that you personally knew it was coming by the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here.

When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.

Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 minutes after?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left--because it was so quiet.

Mr. McCLOY. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any package? Did you see any bundle or package with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember.

Mr. McCLOY. How many shots did you hear fired?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. BALL. Any footsteps?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was making a louder noise.

Mr. BALL. You really ran?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of noise.

Mr. BALL. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether everybody can see it or not----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last question?

Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends----

Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs--or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of west windows.

Now, you are oriented there, are you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. WILLIAMS. You could not see the stairs from that point because this other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. And that would block your view of the stairway from that point.

Mr. BALL. Mark it in there with your pencil.

Mr. WILLIAMS. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come out like that.

Mr. BALL. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high is the shelf?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Pretty high.

Mr. BALL. Does it go to the ceiling?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think.

Mr. BALL. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, by me being the tallest, I saw----

Mr. BALL. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either elevator from where you were standing at "Z"?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly.

Mr. BALL. You mean the west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the east elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you could not see it exactly.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not.

Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.

Mr. BALL. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman--were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. Did you tell them that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you cannot see anything coming down from that position.

Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could not see him.

Mr. BALL. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some pictures.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you 490.

(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the stairs. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the bookshelves I was speaking of.

Mr. BALL. That is the ones that hide the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And the camera is--you saw where the camera was set, didn't you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw these pictures taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the camera?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The camera was located about the exact place I was standing looking out this window.

Mr. BALL. That would be "Z" on 487?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And was pointed toward what direction?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase.

Mr. BALL. The way you would have been looking on that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right.

Mr. BALL. And this shows those shelves.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time.

Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what location?

Mr. WILLIAMS. On this picture here, that would be about right in here.

Mr. BALL. Near the "up", is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have the Commissioners note that--that the man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell.

We took your pictures three in a row, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And then do you recall the picture was taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of--the only thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder.

Mr. BALL. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that--as they were here--on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat like they are here?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have been rearranged since that time.

Mr. BALL. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, as where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right here.

Mr. BALL. The windows next to the west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture?

Mr. BALL. This picture--490 and 492--are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The downstairs come right in here.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this view, 492?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. DULLES. How long has that shelving been there--for quite a long while? Or was it put there recently?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I can remember.

Mr. DULLES. That goes back to the time you were first employed there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building.

Mr. DULLES. So it could not have been put up a day or two before.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention to that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any footsteps?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Up above--hear any movement up above?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone up above?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did you say that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I remember saying that.

Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.

Mr. BALL. How did you go down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?

Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.

Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.

Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?

Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner.

Did you run down stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?

Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.

Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.

Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.

Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.

Mr. BALL. Were the police with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were.

Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and----

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and another fellow, Danny--they took us in one car. Then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.

Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all.

Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they brought them right behind us.

Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman still there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building.

Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so far into evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Could you give me the numbers?

Mr. BALL. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive.

Mr. DULLES. Was 481 introduced?

Mr. BALL. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492 we offer in evidence. The last number is 492.

Mr. DULLES. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the record up to and including 492 will be admitted.

(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492, inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. I have some questions.

When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan, and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember that.

Mr. McCLOY. No one that you know--no one said, "This is the man I have seen on the fifth floor window?"

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No one leave the building."

Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.

Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for the police station?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not give you the exact time.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left the building before the building was closed?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly--he said that--he mentioned that--he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him. "Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown somewhere.

Mr. McCLOY. Had he been at the building at the time of the shooting--Givens?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't believe he had.

Mr. DULLES. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The only thing I heard him say is--I think an officer asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"--like that, you know.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Truly said that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted you, who stopped you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with firearms?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you ever do any hunting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I never go hunting.

Mr. McCLOY. But you have heard shots fired?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something like that.

Mr. McCLOY. You were not in the army?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I have never been in the army.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

Mr. DULLES. I have one question.

You have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a backfire or a firecracker.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any difference in the sound of those three explosions?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the sound. It was just the time between the sound.

Mr. McCLOY. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and the third.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple after the shot? Did you see the President hit?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of jumping.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other questions?

Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen.

Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later.

You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you.

Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?

The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean----

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.

Mr. BALL. Let's identify.

Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.

Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?

Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.

Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.

Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.

Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?

Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.

Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.

Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?

Mr. BALL. I don't know.

Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.

Mr. BALL. I understand.

Any questions?

Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the school book depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now.

Mr. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw them again on the first floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out on the street, those were the only two people I could identify.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you----

Mr. BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I----

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it was to the window which would be to the----

Mr. BRENNAN. Left.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would be to the east and this direction here would be to the west?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east.

Mr. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window here to the east of the window that you first marked B?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. You are not positive?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of this witness?

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the steps of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw walking down the steps of the building were the same two employees that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the easterly most end of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two windows. The one I circled or this window here.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you----

Mr. BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, employees that came down.

Mr. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three possible windows?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one window which is circled and marked with a B.