Part 25

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.

Mr. BALL. How does the other one work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.

Mr. BALL. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.

Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?

Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.

Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.

Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman--as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have here.

On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to the fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did you tell them that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth floor on.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, also, on January 14th, did you remember talking to a couple of agents named Carter and Griffin?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I can't remember their names, but I am sure I did.

Mr. BALL. You talked to a good many of them?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator.

Mr. WILLIAMS. The east elevator. The reason I was able to determine whether it was the east elevator is because I think when you questioned us the other day, the other fellows--I told you I didn't remember which elevator first. But the other fellows said they had the west elevator. There are only two elevators. If they are sure they had the west elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at that time were both elevators on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Both west and east?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 March----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able--did you remember which elevator it was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had?

Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on.

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.

Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.

Mr. BALL. Did you, later?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. When you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of the building, the Elm Street side.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And you saw Norman and----

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, could we get the time element?

Mr. BALL. I am going to bring that in.

Mr. DULLES. All right. I will bide my time.

Mr. BALL. You went over to the front of the building, did you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you saw your two friends, Norman and Jarman?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You had known them before?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you know what time that was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know the exact time.

Mr. BALL. It was----

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building.

Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade.

Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential parade came by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and Jarman.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.

Mr. BALL. You were at what window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three windows over.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture here, which is 482. Do you see yourself in that picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I am right here.

Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a dark line down there towards you and put an arrow on the end. I will mark that W; the arrow W on 482 points to you, Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting in the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were watching the parade?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember whether I was watching the parade here or not. But I was in the window, that window.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as we look at the picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. Now, here is another photograph which is 480, giving more of the front of the building. Can you tell us in what window your friend Jarman was sitting, or watching?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this is James Jarman right here.

Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a line down to that on 480. Draw an arrow to the window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that W on 480.

Now, were you boys sitting down or standing up?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Are you referring to the picture?

Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about your memory now as to what you were doing at the time you were watching for the Presidential parade.

Mr. WILLIAMS. At the time we were watching for the President's parade, I believe I was in a squat position. But I don't remember whether I was on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet.

Mr. BALL. When the parade went by, how were you--squatting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As the parade went by, I was in a squat position.

Mr. BALL. Last Friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position, did you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. To have your pictures taken.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. I can only ask you about your position. First of all, we will mark this as 485.

(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 485 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I will mark this photograph as 486.

(The photograph was marked Exhibit No. 486 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. 485 is a picture of three men. You were there when that picture was taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who are the men who are there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all in the corner of the east of the building is Harold Norman. Secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Who is the man in the center?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is me.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the parade?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was at the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 486 and who are the men in that position?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture here, 486--this fellow--the other fellow in the corner, in the east of the building, is Harold Norman. I am in the window next to him.

Mr. BALL. Your back is to the picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the position you were in when the President's parade went by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Now, what do you remember happened when the President's parade went by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, to the best of my ability, what I remember was first coming off of--I believe it was Main Street--well, two motorcycle policemen came around. I think it was two or maybe three. They came around first. And then I think the President's car followed. And I believe a car was behind it carrying the Vice President, as I remember. I am not sure about it. President Kennedy was sitting in the back seat. I believe his wife was in the back seat. I believe Governor Connally was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the street--I believe----

Mr. McCLOY. What street are you talking about there? Are you talking about Main Street, Houston Street, or Elm Street?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, as I say, they was coming off of Main Street. Then as it turned the corner, the corner which I am speaking of, most people refer to it as Elm Street. But it is not really Elm Street. I believe it is the start of the turnpike, because Elm Street runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the parade come up Houston, north on Houston?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And then you saw it turn to the left in front of your building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had passed your window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. After the President's car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody--even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, was your head out the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice--where did you think the shots came from?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot--I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded--it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement fell on my head.

Mr. BALL. You say cement fell on your head?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact words, I could tell you.

Mr. BALL. Tell us.

Mr. WILLIAMS. My exact words were, "No bull shit." And we jumped up.

Mr. BALL. Norman said what?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't paying attention.

Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.

Mr. BALL. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he did.

Mr. BALL. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say anything?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think Jarman, he--I think he moved before any of us. He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the President." And I think I said again. "No bull shit." And then we all kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided we would run down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. You ran down to the west side of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Ran down to the west side? You mean you were still on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of the building. We saw the policemen and people running, scared, running--there are some tracks on the west side of the building, railroad tracks. They were running towards that way. And we thought maybe--well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over our head. But since everybody was running, you know, to the west side of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody was down there. And so we all ran that way, the way that the people was running, and we was looking out the window.

Mr. BALL. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men notice it and say anything about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one.

Mr. BALL. That is Hank Norman?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway.

Mr. BALL. Jarman is called Junior?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the rifle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember him saying anything about it.

Mr. BALL. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were saying James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about the bolt?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the shells hitting the floor.

Mr. BALL. But you could not hear this?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I could not hear it.

Mr. BALL. That was an old floor, wasn't it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the sixth floor as you would look above your window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light much more when the old floor was there.

Mr. BALL. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the new floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. You could. You could see daylight through.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly over Norman's head.

Mr. BALL. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a joint with the wall?

Mr. WILLIAMS. With the wall.

Mr. BALL. You say you ran down to the west window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From where you were?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. First of all----

Mr. BALL. I will take this same diagram----

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last stop that we was when the policeman came up.

Mr. BALL. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram.

We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you have shown us you were standing.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also point to the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--I would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left like this. Harold was coming from here.

Mr. BALL. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here is the next window, and here is the next window.

Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was right here.

Mr. BALL. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure, but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window here, and we all huddled in this corner window.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you three men?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the window open or closed?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was closed at the time.

Mr. BALL. Was it opened then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe James Jarman opened the window.

Mr. BALL. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Here is 488.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out to the west?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is about the way we were standing.

Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.

Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in the car?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the building. We wondered why they were running that way.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. And we decided to run down that way.

Representative FORD. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know the President had been hit?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I think Harold--I remember--I don't know whether he said or not--but I think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he had been shot at.

Mr. DULLES. One of the other two?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I think it was.

Mr. DULLES. Said that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew he had been shot at.

Mr. BALL. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you show me where that window was.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will mark that Z--window Z.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had your picture taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is 489.

(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go there and look in that direction?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running toward the tracks.

Mr. BALL. The tracks shown in this picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here.

Mr. BALL. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And were people running towards the tracks?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; the policemen were.

Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right here. I dislike breaking up the sequence.

Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade would come by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me.

Representative FORD. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your building until Friday morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming, because I hadn't been reading the papers.

Representative FORD. You had not read the paper the day before?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the mornings before I leave home would be the sports.

Representative FORD. Was it discussed in the building that morning of November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say--I don't remember exactly who it was--but I believe I heard them say the motorcade was coming around that way.