Part 24

As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the floor.

Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what time did you go to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. November 22d, I went to work at 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Were you late or on time that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I was on time that morning. I always get there a little before eight.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone.

He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said anything to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have lunch with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again.

Mr. DULLES. But he would never say good morning or good evening?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw the paper down and get up and walk out.

Representative FORD. Where did this go on?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This was going on in what we call the domino room. This is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. Some fellow would bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. He never would read the sports.

Mr. BALL. The domino room is a little recreation room on the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. Now, you see the map there which has been marked Commission Exhibit 362. Will you point on that map the location of the domino room?

Mr. DULLES. Would it be easier if we put the map up there, and then everybody could see.

Mr. WILLIAMS. In the front entrance--I could explain the way I know the best.

As I said, this would be the main entrance from Elm Street. Well, this would be--the domino room is in the same line with Mr. Shelley's office, and Mr. Truly's office. The domino room would be right in here. Because two bathrooms, a large one and a small one right in this vicinity here.

Mr. BALL. That is marked on the map--the domino room is marked on the map as rec room, and the toilet is shown there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. And there is a small one on the other side.

Mr. BALL. That is on Exhibit 362.

Mr. DULLES. What floor is this we are looking at now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the first floor.

Representative FORD. And it was in the rec room or domino room where you saw Oswald read the paper on this occasion?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; he didn't read it to me. We were waiting turns to play dominoes, and I happened to glance over. And I just noticed what he was reading.

Mr. BALL. Now, this morning, did you see Oswald on the floor at any time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This morning of November 22d?

Mr. BALL. 22d.

Mr. WILLIAMS. The morning of November 22d Oswald was on the floor. The only time I saw him that morning was a little after eight, after I had started working. As usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in his hands, I believe he was.

Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He had a clipboard in his hand.

Mr. BALL. That is the only time you saw him that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the only time I saw him that morning. I saw him again between 11:30 and maybe 10 until 12:00.

Mr. BALL. We will come to that in a moment.

Where did you work that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That morning I worked on the sixth floor. I think we went directly up to the sixth floor and I got there.

Mr. BALL. And how many were working on the sixth floor with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe there were five.

Mr. BALL. What are their names?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, and there was a fellow by the name of Danny Arce.

Mr. BALL. He is a Mexican boy?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. And a fellow by the name of Billy Lovelady, and myself. And there was a fellow that came up--his name was Harold Norman. He really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down.

Mr. DULLES. Was he in the employ of the company?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he had been working there at the time about 2 years, I think.

Mr. DULLES. But he wasn't on this particular detail on the sixth floor that you are speaking of?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, he had been helping us on the fifth floor. When the orders would come in, he would go down and help with the orders, and when he didn't have anything else to do he would come back and help us move stock around.

I think that was him.

Mr. BALL. What part of the sixth floor were you working that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. On the west side.

Mr. BALL. Were you moving stock or laying floor that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were doing both.

Mr. BALL. You were doing both?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The west side of the sixth floor--you mean the whole west side, or was there a certain part--northwest or southwest or middle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the whole west side, because we had to go from window to window--from the elevator to the front window facing Elm Street--we were laying the floor parallel.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around.

Mr. BALL. What was his job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. His job was an order filler.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I mean by that an order filler--when orders come in for the State schools mostly, from Austin, he would take the orders and fill the orders.

If the orders called for a certain amount of books, he would fill that order, and turn it in to be checked, to be shipped out.

Mr. BALL. You say he would fill the order. He would go and get books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He would get books. As an order filler you had access to all the floors, all seven floors.

Mr. BALL. And were the cartons that you are talking about containers of books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, they were.

Mr. BALL. Would a checker--would an order filler go to the different floors and take books out of cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The order filler would have to, in order to fill the order--he would have to move around to each floor, and take the books that he needs.

Mr. BALL. Then where would he take the books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Down to the first floor.

Mr. BALL. And what was on the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The first floor is where the checkers, the freight, and all--they are checking the books to go out, and also where they wrap the books.

Mr. BALL. And were there certain men down there wrapping books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Certain men wrapping, checking, weighing, et cetera.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have a schedule somewhere posted up so that you knew which books were on which floor when an order came in? You would know whether to go to the sixth floor or what floor to go to get the particular books that were wanted?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I remember, I don't know too much about the building.

Mr. DULLES. You were not in the order filling business?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; not in that department.

At the other building. I was just transferred to that building.

I don't think you really had any schedule to go by, or anything to show you where the books were. You just asked the older fellows that had been there were certain books--if you are looking for a certain book, they would tell you where to find it.

Mr. BALL. This morning, when you think you saw Oswald on the sixth floor, can you tell us about where he was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I said before, I am not sure that he was really on the sixth floor. But he was always around that way. In the place I think I saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he was on that side of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of the sixth floor which I will have marked as Exhibit 483.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 483 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. First of all, this is Houston Street, and the top is north--east and west. Here is Elm Street.

Mr. WILLIAMS. This would be the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. This is the east elevator, west elevator and the stairway.

Now, can you take this and show us about where your men were working laying floor on that sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say----

Mr. BALL. First of all, you take this pencil and put it down there, and then we will make the markings afterwards.

Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. The area where you were laying floor. Make the outside limits of the area.

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working in this area down there like that.

Mr. BALL. In other words, from there to the west, or where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working from the west coming this way, coming to the east. And we had got about just so much.

Mr. BALL. Well, let's draw a dark line down there. This marks the area that you saw?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had already laid floor from the west side to the dark line?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were working right around in the dark line area, were you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you saw Oswald that morning.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I saw Oswald somewhere around in this vicinity. As I was up by this other elevator, I think one time I saw him over there. I am not really sure.

Mr. BALL. You have drawn a line here. This is a sort of general area where you say you saw Oswald, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that as "O". That is on the north side of the floor near the east elevator.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that "O".

Now, these lines you have marked show your area where you were working.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that W-1 and W-1.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some boxes put back in?

Mr. WILLIAMS. To begin with, I think we were working on the wall first. I don't think we moved too many books in this area. I think we just moved them out and right back in, as I remember.

But I think after we got a little further over, I think we had to move some books. We had to move these books to the east side of this building, over here, and those books--I would say this would be the window Oswald shot the President from. We moved these books kind of like in a row like that, kind of winding them around.

Mr. DULLES. That is moving them from the west towards the east of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. The window was here?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions on this?

Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you think it was you saw Oswald, if you can remember? If you can't remember, don't guess.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I cannot remember.

Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off work for the lunch hour?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, approximately--between 11:30 to 12, around in there. I wouldn't say the exact time, because I don't remember the exact time.

Mr. BALL. What time do you usually quit for lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We always quit about 5 minutes before time.

During the rush season we quit about 5 minutes before time and washup.

Mr. BALL. Wash your hands and face before you eat lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. You say quit 5 minutes before time. What is the time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Five before 12.

Mr. BALL. Did you quit earlier this day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this day we quit about maybe 5 or 10 minutes, because all of us were so anxious to see the President--we quit a little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure we would not miss anything.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you go downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We took two elevators down. I mean, speaking as a group, we took two down.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you took two down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We always had a little kids game we played racing down with the elevators. And I think one fellow, Charles Givens, had the east elevator, and me, and I think two or three more fellows had the west elevator. And we was racing down.

Mr. BALL. Who was driving the west side elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly who was.

Mr. BALL. You were not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't think I was. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Who was driving the east side elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think that was Charles Givens.

Mr. BALL. Now, did something happen on the way down--did somebody yell out?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator.

And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that.

And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back up."

I don't know what happened after that.

Representative FORD. Had the elevator gone down below the floor from which he yelled?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the sixth.

The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving.

Representative FORD. The elevator did not go back up to the floor from which he yelled?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think he asked Charles Givens--I think he said, "Close the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up."

I think that is what he said.

Mr. McCLOY. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come down when he wanted to come down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the 23d of November 1963, you talked to two FBI agents according to the record I have here, Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin, and they reported that you said that as they were going down, that you saw Lee on the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I told him the fifth or the sixth. I told him I wasn't sure about it.

Mr. BALL. And were you sure at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About which floor it was?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Are you sure today?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure today.

Mr. BALL. But you think it was the fifth or the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you sure it was Oswald you talked to?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure it was Oswald. I didn't talk to him.

Mr. BALL. But you heard him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard him.

Mr. BALL. You went down to the first floor.

What did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We went down to the first floor. I think the first thing I did, I washed up, then I went into the domino room where I kept my lunch, and I got my lunch, came back out and went back up.

Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Do you usually carry your lunch to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. That was your habit, carrying your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that day, on November 22d, how did you carry your lunch from home to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8--paper bag.

Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Small bag?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.

Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.

Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.

Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.

Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.

Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.

Mr. McCLOY. What floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.

Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.

Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler.

By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building.

But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Representative FORD. No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.

Mr. BALL. I have an exhibit here marked 484.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 484 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recognize that.

Mr. BALL. What do you see?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I see a two-wheeler, a Dr. Pepper bottle, and some boxes in the windows.

Mr. BALL. And is that anywhere near where you were sitting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the exact place I was sitting.

Mr. BALL. That is the two-wheeler you were sitting on?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were on the two-wheeler, as you were sitting there, did you have a view, could you see down towards the southeast corner?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I couldn't see anything as I remember there. About the only thing that I could see from there would be just the top edge of the window, because the boxes were stacked up.

Mr. BALL. The boxes were stacked up high?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let me show you another picture here.

Mr. DULLES. You are not introducing that at this time?

Mr. BALL. I will. I am going to introduce them all.

Let's go back to the diagram, which is 483. Could you mark on this diagram the window that is shown in this picture 484--that is, the place where you were sitting and eating your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That would be facing Elm Street. I would say right around in this.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you are marking here something between--some area between the third and the fourth window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell exactly?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I am not.

Mr. BALL. The witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate area which runs from about the center of the second row of windows from the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say about right in here, third or fourth.

Mr. BALL. Third or fourth?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have made two marks, so I will identify the last mark. Between the third and fourth, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "W-3" and "W-4" the end of the lines.

Mr. McCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.

Mr. McCLOY. Just 12?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really don't remember if I seen anything--it would be just the top edge of the window, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.

Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor.

Mr. BALL. There is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, 484--does that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe that was the bottle--I believe. I am not sure. But it looks like it.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of the bottle shown on 484?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am really not sure about it. I don't think I left it there. I am not sure. I think I left it sitting up on top of the boxes, right to the side of the two-wheeler. As I remember--I am not sure about it. It is possible that I could have put it there.

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that the Dr. Pepper bottle was left on top of the boxes?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that you left the Dr. Pepper bottle on top of some of the cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. It is shown there on the floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you left there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went down to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. How did you get down there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I took an elevator down.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go down the stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.