Part 23

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as yet.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is not distinct enough.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.

Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as this.

Mr. BELIN. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit darker line.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is as close as I can get it.

Mr. BELIN. This is on Exhibit 482--as to the angle at which you saw the rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Representative FORD. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was pointed?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And that is from the area in the window from which the rifle was pointing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.

But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It did look at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window.

Mr. BELIN. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits 480, 481, and 482.

Mr. DULLES. They will be accepted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin.

Mr. BELIN. One more question, sir.

Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window where you saw the gun?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately 110-foot. That was my first calculation.

But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than 75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday.

Mr. BELIN. One additional question, sir.

When did you first see Exhibit 479?

Mr. BRENNAN. This morning.

Mr. BELIN. This morning here.

And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that picture? Was it you or was it I?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did.

I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any information on your evidence whatsoever.

Mr. BELIN. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in Dallas--that would be on March 20th.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what happened, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?" Or did I just ask you repeated questions?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what happened.

Mr. BELIN. And you just started to tell it, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe that sums it up.

Mr. BELIN. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the place where you were sitting?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you had them examined?

Mr. BRENNAN. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist there.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

How did you find that out?

Mr. BERLIN. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here.

Mr. BRENNAN. Had that question been asked me before?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore glasses for reading purposes only.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course.

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or early February of this year.

Representative FORD. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the assassination?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. You can see better at that distance without your glasses than with them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and it is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just regular clear.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I have some questions.

You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible fusilade of shots.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. Eventually, yes.

Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up--from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.

Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.

Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.

Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate--was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.

I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there--I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.

Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?

Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people coming in and out while you were there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas Book Store--I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may have been completely wrong, they may have--the Secret Service men and police department, too, may have been directing their search to the building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the west side of the building.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That was my thoughts.

Mr. McCLOY. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, below the window that you saw the shot fired from?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not according to my calculations.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions?

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include in the record--I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an outline of the individual's background--I think it would be helpful for the record.

Mr. DULLES. We have certain information.

Mr. BELIN. We have certain information in the record right now which we took at the very beginning of the session here this morning.

Representative FORD. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to have more of a background of his education, experience, and I think it is wise to have it for all of the witnesses--not in great depth, but at least a background to show some biographical information.

Mr. BELIN. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, or here in the record?

Representative FORD. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record.

Mr. DULLES. Prior to his testimony?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an autobiographical sketch of yourself--your date and place of birth, where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Because you have gone from one job to another?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last 20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through with that particular construction job, the union would send you to another construction job?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or somewhere like that.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think we need all that detail.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have been a steamfitter.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in California, private business.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you a member of a church?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. What church are you a member of?

Mr. BRENNAN. Baptist.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified you were a Bible reader.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I don't read it as much as I should.

Mr. McCLOY. When you do, you have to wear glasses?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions?

Mr. BELIN. There have been two or three other questions that have come up here, sir.

One question--when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me what you wanted to tell me?

Mr. BRENNAN. I told you--you did not instruct me what to say at all. I told you in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and what happened.

Representative FORD. And here today you have testified freely on your own?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right, I have.

Mr. DULLES. Anything you would like to add?

Mr. BELIN. One other question, sir.

For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on November 22d you declined to give positive identification. Could you give all of the reasons, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on television than he did from my picture of him in the window--not much younger, but a few years younger--say 5 years younger.

And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose.

Representative FORD. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November 22d, that is when you did get home----

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was your wife there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the assassination?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; we discussed it. We talked--I talked of moving her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my daughter--moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy.

Representative FORD. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. Because I had already more or less given a detailed description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family.

So that was just about the length of our discussion of it.

She seemed to think that a person can't get away--wherever they go.

Representative FORD. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m., November 22d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came out and picked you up that day?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not to tell--not to give any information out.

My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that evening, and my daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service, to tell them where they could contact me.

And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly.

Representative FORD. 6 p.m., November 22d.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right.

Representative FORD. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the police station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back from the police station, did you have any further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details. She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification. I believe that is all I told her.

Mr. BELIN. That you would not, or that you could not?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I told her I would not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 150.

Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind?

Mr. BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade or so lighter.

Mr. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you see the man's trousers at all?

Do you remember any color?

Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window.

Mr. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just didn't have the same clothes on.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I am sure you do.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin.

Mr. BELIN. Well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with the Commission.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much for coming here.

TESTIMONY OF BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS

Mr. BELIN. Our next witness is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, the purpose of the hearing today is to take the testimony of you and certain others whose names are mentioned here.

You and the other witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

You will be asked to provide the Commission with your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Would you rise, sir?

Do your swear that the evidence you will give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Williams, how old are you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am 20 years old.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I live in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1502 Avenue B, Apartment B.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I am.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was born in Carthage, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Texas?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. All the way.

Mr. BALL. Graduated from high school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Marshall, Tex., and I finished high school summer course in Dallas, Texas, Madison High.

Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work after that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel.

Mr. BALL. What did you do there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on as a fry cook.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About 6 or 7 months.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage department.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I worked there about a year.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was a mail separator.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. When did you get that job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Around about September 8th.

Mr. BALL. What year?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1963.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go there to get the job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, my wife was expecting, and I just wanted a day job--I was working at night. So I just went looking for a day job, and I happened to come down that way.

Mr. DULLES. Were you going to school in the daytime?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

Mr. DULLES. This is after you finished school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. All this took place after I finished school.

Mr. BALL. You finished school when?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.

Mr. BALL. And you had these three----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; and I had a part-time job at a construction company. I don't remember the name of it. But it was just for about a week.

Mr. BALL. When you were going to school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No. That was the same time I was working at Marriott's Motel.

Mr. BALL. Did you work while you went to school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I delivered the Dallas morning newspaper sometimes, and little odd jobs.

Mr. BALL. Well, did anybody tell you you might get a job at the Texas School Book Depository before you went down there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were just looking for a job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I just put in applications everywhere.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do when you first went with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think the first day I started work there they started me off as a wrapper. Then the fellows told me that I had qualifications to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there.

Mr. BALL. What are you doing now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. At the present time I do anything--check, pack, fill orders, anything.

Mr. BALL. When you went to work there, did you work at the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. The first time I went there I was hired on at the other warehouse, the lower part of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. By lower part, do you mean north of the main building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Down further, the big white building.

Mr. BALL. That is sort of a warehouse?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went to work there. That is about a block, a block and a half north?

Mr. WILLIAMS. A block and a half.

Mr. BALL. North of the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you work at that place?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during October. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time.

So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.

Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth floor. We only completed just a little portion of it.

Mr. BALL. By the time, you are talking about November 22d?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in the building at Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up there just about 4 weeks, I think.

Mr. BALL. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before--how long have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22d?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have been 2 days--it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days, approximately 2 days.

Mr. BALL. Before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move any cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. From what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We moved cartons from, I believe, the west side of the sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because I think there was a vacancy in there.

Mr. BALL. Clear over to the east side?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the east side--were there cartons on the floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor.

Then we had to move the cartons.