Part 22

Representative FORD. And then his movements from there on until he left the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise places he was from time to time.

Mr. BELIN. I think he might do that right now.

Mr. Brennan, I place in front of you Exhibit 361, and I call to your attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. And you will notice at the top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm Street. And you can see running in a north-south direction Houston Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in black.

Do you see that?

Mr. BRENNAN. It should be here.

Mr. BELIN. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we can keep it upside down for the moment.

This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you walked to the south.

I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you had your lunch.

Mr. BRENNAN. This is Main here.

Mr. BELIN. Main would be running there, yes.

If you would, put a "D" at that point.

Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took that day.

All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. I didn't go to the corner.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would be the southeast corner?

Mr. BRENNAN. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this corner.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361.

Mr. BRENNAN. "E"?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that would be just about where the retainer wall is.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting facing the School Book Depository Building.

Representative FORD. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where he went subsequent to that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and the Secret Service officers?

Mr. BRENNAN. The retaining wall come around here and straight across here.

Mr. BELIN. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him?

Mr. BRENNAN. The car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him. This is where I contacted the officer.

Mr. BELIN. You contacted the officer at "F".

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went over to a car.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on there?

Mr. BRENNAN. I walked down the street hereaways with this officer.

Mr. BELIN. All right, the point from "F" where you walked down the street, that would be walking north on Houston?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do remember going in that direction with the officer.

Mr. BELIN. You went to the north on Houston?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And then back to----

Mr. BELIN. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you could, just to show the route of you going north.

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know exactly however.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" approximately?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here?

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got home--my wife saw it.

Mr. BELIN. On television?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them.

Do you remember what station they were on television?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut.

Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with?

Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

We thank you very much for that information.

Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office?

Mr. BRENNAN. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the doorway.

Mr. BELIN. Of what building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me across to the Sheriff's office.

Mr. DULLES. You did not go inside the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of the building after these two Negroes came out?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different picture I cannot remember.

Representative FORD. Where were you standing when you identified the two Negroes?

Mr. BRENNAN. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the steps.

Mr. BELIN. Was that at point "G"?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along Houston Street to the time--to the place where you were sitting. You recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you start there and kind of trace--well, I don't know if you can see all of it.

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do the best you can, you can trace along here.

Here would be the intersection of Main and Houston.

Mr. BRENNAN. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that time.

Mr. BELIN. By this street you mean Houston Street?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there.

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on.

All right. Now, at that first point, this would be----

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?

Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?

Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you would, there, please.

Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after the assassination, or the shooting--you said you first went over to another side of the wall.

Would it be to the east or to the west there?

Mr. BRENNAN. To the east. This right here is solid concrete.

Mr. BELIN. Is this where you went?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after the shooting?

All right.

Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, where he was.

It looks like there is a car there now.

So you went from point "J" to point "K", and point "K", on Exhibit 477, would correspond with "F" on Exhibit 361, is that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you went to the car.

Mr. BRENNAN. This car here--letter what?

Mr. BELIN. "L".

Mr. BRENNAN. That is this car here, sitting approximately where----

Mr. BELIN. I note that this car that you have marked the "L" is not actually on the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on that part which is going down to the Freeway.

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, is that right?

Yes; you are correct there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked right in front of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right next to the curb in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be behind--you might put the letter "M" to show the car which it is behind now.

Mr. BRENNAN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on these exhibits.

Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted as remarked.

(The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. And also Exhibit 361 should be reoffered.

Mr. DULLES. What is 361?

Mr. BELIN. It is the large chart which also has been marked on.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted again, remarked.

(The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, which was taken shortly after this time.

I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit 482 is an enlargement of 481.

First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I do not recognize them.

As positive identification I cannot recognize them.

Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on that other exhibit that they were in this window.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I am going to hand you now----

Mr. BRENNAN. The only thing I said is that they were one window over below the man that fired the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a "B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this the one you say now you might have been mistaken?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that I identified was in this window.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have now marked "B"?

Mr. BRENNAN. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought this was one window over.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. These do.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now?

Mr. BRENNAN. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting being that low.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the sixth floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would.

Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this.

Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be similar to the ones you saw on November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could see more boxes.

Mr. BELIN. In the window or behind the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Behind the window.

Mr. BELIN. I am talking in the window itself.

Mr. BRENNAN. No, no. That is--I don't remember a box in the window, these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back of here.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east side, is that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you say you don't remember----

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know whether you can see them or not. It seems like I can see the boxes in that picture. Am I right?

Mr. BELIN. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That could be the dirty window here.

Mr. BRENNAN. Here they are here. Those boxes there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, here is Exhibit 482.

First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I don't recall that box.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you don't recall whether it was or was not there.

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could not say it definitely wasn't there.

Mr. BELIN. You cannot say whether it was or was not?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes.

All right.

Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I believe it is, Underwood or--just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission, and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in Dallas in the first part of April.

And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record.

I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film.

Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time you saw the rifle in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man or rifle in the window.

Mr. BELIN. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought it was?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether or not there was any man in the window during that period?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first thought was what?

Mr. BRENNAN. Backfire of a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. And then you later said something about a firecracker.

Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the first and last?

Mr. BRENNAN. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only positive recollection of two shots.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and clear, with no echo on my part.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

But you saw him aim?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.

Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could you see what he was firing at?

Mr. BRENNAN. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the President or his car at that time.

And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as approximately 90 yards.

At that time did you make that statement to the FBI--and this would be on 22 November. To the best of your recollection?

Mr. BRENNAN. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards.

Now, I----

Mr. BELIN. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where?

Mr. BRENNAN. From Kennedy's position.

Mr. BELIN. But could you see Kennedy's position?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could not. But I could see before and after.

Mr. BELIN. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository, but you stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw fire the rifle.

Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI on or about November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe----

Mr. BELIN. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct, as to what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not identify the person, apart from what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Why did I----

Mr. BELIN. No.

What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this person as the man you saw firing the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior, which naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I could have positively identified the man.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time, according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you made of Oswald at the police department.

Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told the FBI with regard to that matter of identification?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it does.

Mr. BELIN. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in which at that time the interview records that while you were at home and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window.

Now, is that what you told the man on January 7--that Oswald most resembled the man that you had seen in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does that mean you could not give him a positive identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the man in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not want to give a positive identification at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guy that----

Mr. BELIN. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled the man you had seen in the window.

Is that what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

You mean told this man?

Mr. BELIN. On January 7th; yes, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted that I was saying that again.

Mr. BELIN. In other words--well, I don't want to say in other words.

When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th of this year.

Mr. BRENNAN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. By that, did you have reference to your own personal recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police Department lineup?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether or not you could give--whether or not you felt on November 22d that the man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup--not what you told him, but what was the fact?

Mr. BRENNAN. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could give positive identification as well as I did later.

Mr. BELIN. You mean in the December interview?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the man with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me on the plane--of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did identify them that day.

Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said that you could not identify----

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles.