Part 20

We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the Soviet person.

Mr. JENNER. Were you active in that group?

Mrs. PAINE. I was chairman of that for sometime.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought communication?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more.

Mr. JENNER. If you once had it?

Mrs. PAINE. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up to last spring, I would say, and I haven't--yes; and I haven't heard anything from her for about a year.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly with respect to subject matter?

Mrs. PAINE. We discussed?

Mr. JENNER. In this letter period?

Mrs. PAINE. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the time of our correspondence.

Mr. JENNER. Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; of course.

Mr. JENNER. Russian citizen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of language study aid.

My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say, probably a year ago that came.

Mr. JENNER. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to improve your Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. The committee was formed much the same time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets for cultural exchange, and I think our purposes were similar but, of course, outside the government.

Mr. JENNER. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you have any contact with them?

Mrs. PAINE. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Were a number of other people present?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the only contact you had with them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure propaganda.

Mr. JENNER. He sought to report what his experiences here were in America?

Mrs. PAINE. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we had worked to achieve.

Mr. JENNER. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you read?

Mrs. PAINE. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate and unfair.

Mr. JENNER. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it?

Mrs. PAINE. Misrepresented America, certainly.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on now to what I have studied?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text.

Mr. JENNER. What year did you say that was?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was 1957.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in Russian, and improved my ability to converse, and it helped me to recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated course.

I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and out. This was very valuable though very difficult.

Mr. JENNER. Who was your instructor?

Mrs. PAINE. There?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov.

Mr. JENNER. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your instructors at Middlebury?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of any other?

Mrs. PAINE. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of the school but he was not an instructor of mine.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a roommate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. What was your roommate's name?

Mrs. PAINE. Her name was Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you still have contact with her?

Mrs. PAINE. It has been a long time since I have written but we have exchanged Christmas cards.

Mr. JENNER. Christmas cards and an occasional letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?

Mrs. PAINE. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did she at one time live in New York City?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New York.

Mr. JENNER. Her mother is?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have you had in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960 I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after that with private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor.

Mr. JENNER. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Now, are you a teacher of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a connection with an established institution?

Mrs. PAINE. It began in connection with an established institution during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks School during that quarter or summer term?

Mrs. PAINE. Summer term.

Mr. JENNER. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a tutor, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Who is your student?

Mrs. PAINE. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. JENNER. Is he, what is he, a young man?

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. JENNER. How old is he?

Mrs. PAINE. He turned 15 in the summer.

Mr. JENNER. Is he a native American so far as you know?

Mrs. PAINE. As far as I know, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your--has it been also your desired objective on your part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public or private schools?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would like to do that.

Mr. JENNER. That is still your hope and desire?

Mrs. PAINE. It interests me very much.

Mr. JENNER. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs. Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission, is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into which they are inquiring?

Mrs. PAINE. There are a few small items I hope we will get into tomorrow.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. Would they take very long for you to state?

Mrs. PAINE. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is that what you want?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak up a little bit, your voice has been dropping.

Mrs. PAINE. I am tired.

I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is probably no use to you.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I call the Mexico letter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is what you call it, all right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Give the exhibit.

Mrs. PAINE. It is Exhibit No. 103.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear all I know in relation to that.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please.

Mrs. PAINE. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in which----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would you relate that now on the Commission record, please?

Mrs. PAINE. All right. I might say that I think it is important and relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house.

Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to answer them.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view?

Mrs. PAINE. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would be our single difference of opinion.

And in the spring of 1962 I felt that something more definite should be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation that year.

Mr. JENNER. That was 1962?

Mrs. PAINE. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual partnership.

My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are totally acceptable to me.

Mr. JENNER. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Has he always been?

Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always kind and thoughtful.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any financial differences of opinion?

Mrs. PAINE. We have not.

Mr. JENNER. He even during this period of time when you were separated, he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. You had no arguments about matters of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband has returned to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He is living there now.

Mr. JENNER. How long has that been?

Mrs. PAINE. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say this is a reconciliation?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say that.

Mr. JENNER. You cannot.

Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours?

Mrs. PAINE. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate statement of the marriage.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would like to bring before the Commission.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?

Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection are the statements and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the Commission consistent with statements you have given to the FBI, to Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone?

Mrs. PAINE. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with anything I have said before except that the statement here has been much fuller than any single previous statement.

Mr. JENNER. And you have testified to matters and things before the Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we spent several hours talking?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one in the morning, did we not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right, we did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, inconsistent with anything you related to me?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way.

Mr. JENNER. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you.

Mr. JENNER. All of the statements that you related to me were free and voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or heavy, as the case might be, on my part.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition.

Senator COOPER. As I understand the matters you will go into by deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but more to----

Mr. JENNER. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian language.

More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now mentioned she would like to relate herself.

Mrs. PAINE. One of which we took care of already.

Mr. JENNER. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions.

I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already.

Senator COOPER. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to testify.

Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my coming.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and I also will make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will record the conversation between us, questions and answers.

Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions?

Mr. JENNER. That is all. Thank you, sir.

Senator COOPER. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the call of the Chairman of the Commission.

(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.)

_Tuesday, March 24, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS, HAROLD NORMAN, JAMES JARMAN, JR., AND ROY SANSOM TRULY

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what the purpose of the session is, I will read a little statement to you.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Howard Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, Roy S. Truly.

These witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. They will be asked to provide the Commission with their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Belin will conduct the interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. Howard Leslie Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. BRENNAN. 6814 Woodward, Dallas 27.

Mr. BELIN. And how old a man are you?

Mr. BRENNAN. 45.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BRENNAN. Two children. One grandson.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Steamfitter.

Mr. BELIN. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed?

Mr. BRENNAN. Wallace and Beard.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a construction company?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a steamfitter?

Mr. BRENNAN. Since 1943, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job?

Mr. BRENNAN. I go from job to job.

Mr. BELIN. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union?

Mr. BRENNAN. Local 100 in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so?

Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of Main and Record. I believe that is it.

Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?

Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President.

I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?

Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.

Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to----

Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Houston

Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?

Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge.

Mr. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477.