Part 2

I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.

I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his being interested in having it that way.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 days?

Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days.

Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and would be seeking a position?

Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.

Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted himself to speak with you in English?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?"

"Yes, she knew it."

Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation.

Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of what he had done as I ever got from him.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.

I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give your reaction.

Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it.

Mr. JENNER. That was the end?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities.

The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.

Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned that as a possible----

Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?

Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost his job before this happened.

Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said.

Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you raised it, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular conversation, have you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had been when I first was in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina and Lee when you were there in the spring?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in New Orleans. You found the situation different?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?

Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening.

Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?

Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put away. And I believe he did some packing.

Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by preference to having me handle it.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. Did he seem eager to do the packing?

Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly.

Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and we left Tuesday morning.

Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and Marina were on tour?

Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open on Sunday?

Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time.

Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be----

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was.

Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman.

Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the first I saw him taking that much interest.

Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all three of you.

Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children.

Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us?

Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present?

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was about. But I might if I saw it.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Was it an English book?

Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would have read that, anyway.

Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? Ten Days----

Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for sure whether I have that one.

Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World?

Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they included history and literature and English.

Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian at Saint Marks School in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from many points of view regarding Soviet life.

Representative FORD. I interrupted you.

Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those 2 days and 3 nights.

Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and stayed while they were done and went back.

Mr. JENNER. You and Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina and I went.

Mr. JENNER. He remained home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did they come there?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or Monday.

No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, because Sunday was the day before we left.

Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively.

Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.

Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.

Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer.

Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as far as you knew?

Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.

We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire.

Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it was at least a gesture.

Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help.

Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially or anything at all to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in fact ever give you any money?

Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give Marina.

Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.

Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children?

Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.

Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any sympathy for him at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing Marina any more?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever.

Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the presence of Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for work, or possibly to Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns?

Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in Houston.

Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he said or which might have been said in your presence that after you girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look----

Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we left.

Mr. JENNER. Promptly?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to Houston, or what was the other town?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect.

Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything on the subject of Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this interim period?

Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about any particular time, he would see Marina again.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that indicated his claim to 1 year residence in Texas, I can't remember just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about the husband, where is the husband?

Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words.

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for work or something? What shall I say about you?

Mr. JENNER. This is Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation.

Mr. JENNER. By you?

Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?

He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."

And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to what representations you might make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to--may I defer the packing until Representative Ford returns--on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex., or to Philadelphia to look for a job?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified, the supposed friend?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In Houston, identified?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I remember wondering if there was one.

Mr. JENNER. You wondered at the time?

Mrs. PAINE. I wondered to myself if there was one.

Mr. JENNER. What made you wonder?

Mrs. PAINE. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about it. But this thought crossed my mind.

Mr. JENNER. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he would be home before noontime.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh?

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw him.

Mr. JENNER. So that as far as--this I would like to bring out, Mr. Chairman--as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were limited, were they not?

Mrs. PAINE. They were limited.

Mr. JENNER. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that Marina was with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights in the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home substantially all of that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what was it--the 15th of October? Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. He was not?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October 4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you use a car.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the problems in that connection?

Mrs. PAINE. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us the problems first, the physical problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far was it from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 minute car ride.

Mr. JENNER. And what means of transportation was there from the bus terminal to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Walking?

Mr. JENNER. Any public transportation.

Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing public.

Mr. JENNER. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the 12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.

Mr. JENNER. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been in Mexico?