Part 18

Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there ever any financial arrangement agreed on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every need.

Mr. JENNER. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified about them yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Dallas the following day?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days by you?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday.

Mr. JENNER. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas.

Mrs. PAINE. I have given you all my recollections on this matter, haven't I, for the record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. With----

Mr. JENNER. Even after further reflection last night your recollection is as you have already stated?

Mrs. PAINE. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the employment office.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

What occasion was this?

Mrs. PAINE. What day?

Mr. JENNER. Day, yes; please?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a Monday.

Mr. JENNER. And had he been out at your home over the weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was it after he had become employed with the Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was his purpose.

Mr. JENNER. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the matter of employment by the Texas Book Depository had arisen?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which was Monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs. Roberts about this.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. No; on the 14th.

Mr. JENNER. On the 14th. That was what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. Monday.

Mr. JENNER. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't think when else it could have been.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the day then?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate--did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and seeing his apartment or room?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your home or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like?

Mrs. PAINE. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the refrigerator.

Mr. JENNER. But other than that he didn't describe it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any additional appointments?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such conversation at any time.

Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. He is--what is his position with the University of Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania Music Department, has he not?

Mrs. PAINE. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it.

Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently?

Mrs. PAINE. She has a very good command of the language. I think she has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to whether she might assist you with your Russian studies?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped that was in Russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the east.

Mr. JENNER. You mean, summer, not fall.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that I saw her.

Mr. JENNER. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip before you went, that is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So we are talking about the same trip.

Mrs. PAINE. That is the same trip.

Mr. JENNER. You did see her?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. At her home.

Mr. JENNER. Where is her home?

Mrs. PAINE. Her home is not far from the residence where I was staying in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion then to report to her that--about Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an American who is now residing in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina, but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital difficulties with her husband.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment, but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and concerned her deeply.

And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else, that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt I was taking his wife or not doing what he wanted in the situation, that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject myself or my children to possible harm from him.

She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of violence in relation to me.

Mr. JENNER. To the point of physical violence in relation to you?

Mrs. PAINE. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be perfectly sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in fact, angry at my offer.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.

Mr. JENNER. You were there about 3 days?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister?

Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.

Mr. JENNER. And in substance did you say to your sister that you intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about 2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas?

Did you say that much to her?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to go.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that have I stated the substance in that connection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his husband's role was concerned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not.

What did you say, did you say anything of similar import?

Mrs. PAINE. Similar?

Mr. JENNER. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina wished to leave Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I would guess that was her interpretation.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say in this connection, please?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to your sister as to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say in that connection.

Mrs. PAINE. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up to----

Mr. JENNER. This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I want.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and there were a great many people, about this friend because it was important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in New Orleans that I thought he cared at all.

Mr. JENNER. I am just confining myself to this period. During this period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were talking.

Mrs. PAINE. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was more forceful than what I said.

Mr. JENNER. But you did express a negative opinion.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You testified that--are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde?

Mrs. PAINE. He is my brother.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited there in September of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's husband was a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred to him as a Marxist.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a Communist in your mind?

Mrs. PAINE. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt there was a distinction as he----

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist was as distinguished from a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear impression.

Mr. JENNER. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process?

Mrs. PAINE. This is not something I ever heard from him.

Mr. JENNER. Was it anything that you ever thought of?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. A concept that you ever had?

Mrs. PAINE. In describing Marxism?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was--he always took care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey by that description?

Mrs. PAINE. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that was my impression.

Mr. JENNER. More pure than what?

Mrs. PAINE. Than a Communist.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.

Mr. JENNER. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's political views?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of them?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution--contributed toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those difficulties resulted?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that feeling.

Mr. JENNER. You did not.

What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one?

Mrs. PAINE. All the time I knew her or at least any references from her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their difficulties.

Mr. JENNER. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so?

Mrs. PAINE. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude that she couldn't.

She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it.

Mr. JENNER. Have you completed your answer?

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor background?

Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way.

Mr. JENNER. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever saying that.

I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion.

Mr. JENNER. That would be hearsay?

Mrs. PAINE. That would be hearsay.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge?

Do you recall that?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mark Lane.

Mrs. PAINE. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I recall that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort Worth Press?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say to the reporter then?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have already described.

The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could have--the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation.

And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.

Mr. JENNER. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle practice?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.

Mr. JENNER. Where was the firing range at which it was suggested he practiced?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car drive I would expect.

Mr. JENNER. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. You are relying on the newspapers, are you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Were you asked to give your opinion on that?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so.

Senator COOPER. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing range?

Mrs. PAINE. The only thing--well--it had been reported in the press that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the reporters asked me about it.

Senator COOPER. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the 21st before you got up?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand the question.

Senator COOPER. The 22d, yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps I will understand it better.

Senator COOPER. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including also the morning of the 22d?

Mrs. PAINE. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your return from Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all your contact with them during that period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office?

Mrs. PAINE. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any time that they could have.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up, did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth?

Mrs. PAINE. After he had been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley would not talk about it.

Mr. JENNER. That was the extent of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know a Frank Krystinik?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. He is an associate of your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children?

Mrs. PAINE. I could well have given him that impression or given him that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank.

Mr. JENNER. But you could have made that remark to him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You made similar remarks to others?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, I have.

Mr. JENNER. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs. Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia alone?

Mrs. PAINE. I very probably did.

Mr. JENNER. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak English?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that I did.

Mr. JENNER. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a few questions?

Mr. JENNER. Surely.

Senator COOPER. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket.

Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she had seen in Lee's possession.

What did she say about it?

Mrs. PAINE. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun or not.

Senator COOPER. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Senator COOPER. Were you translating?

Mrs. PAINE. No, Mr. Mamantov.

Senator COOPER. Were you following what she said?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.

Senator COOPER. How did she designate the sight? What words?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as I recall.

Senator COOPER. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word.

Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or whatever the word used was on the gun.

Senator COOPER. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything more about having seen the rifle before?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.

Senator COOPER. To you? What?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from Dallas when he would come for his visits?

Mrs. PAINE. After he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he came with Wesley Frazier.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him to your house?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the Depository brought him to the house?

Mrs. PAINE. Other than Wesley Frazier; no.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of the people with whom he worked at the Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. Except for Wesley; no.

Senator COOPER. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, associates there?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or disliking them as a group or as individuals?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Senator COOPER. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates?

Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anyone.

Senator COOPER. He never mentioned the name of any person?

Mrs. PAINE. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can recall.

Senator COOPER. You said that you told someone that Marina did not agree with his political views?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. How did you know that?

Mrs. PAINE. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest.

Senator COOPER. That is something different from saying that she didn't agree with them.