Part 17

Mr. JENNER. And to the present day--well, I want to include the time that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with Marina, let us say up to and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by Marina of the possibility of Lee Oswald contemplating making an attack upon the person of Richard Nixon?

Mrs. PAINE. No; no such discussion.

Mr. JENNER. Did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that time, talk to you on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me if I thought there was anything to it but that is something else.

Mr. JENNER. When you say recently some rumor to that effect that is what you are talking about?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Up to that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony this morning that you have seen and talked with Robert Oswald but once?

Mrs. PAINE. And you recall also when he came to pick up her things?

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Twice.

Mr. JENNER. So you saw him once for the first time in the city police station?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You talked with him on that occasion. You saw him on one occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And had some conversation with him then. Have there ever been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him directly or by telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I made one attempt to have such a conversation and drove out to his home in Denton and talked with his wife.

Mr. JENNER. And what occurred then? When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly in January.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1964?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you go out there?

Mrs. PAINE. I had been writing letters to Marina and receiving no reply, and I wanted to go and talk with both Robert and his wife to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to Marina in this situation, whether it was better to write letters or better not to, whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing that they had seen her, I felt they might be able to help me with this.

I was told by Mrs. Robert Oswald that Robert had a bad cold, and she didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and I talked through the screen, and I explained what I wanted. But I didn't feel helped by the visit.

Mr. JENNER. You did not.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality?

Mrs. PAINE. She apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to communicate through a screen.

Mr. JENNER. That was the only difficulty that you observed, the difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt that she could have asked me whether I cared if my children were exposed. I felt that she preferred for me not to come in.

Senator COOPER. Was Marina staying with them?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I am pretty certain she was at that time at the Martin's home.

Senator COOPER. Did you get any impression in your talk with Mrs. Robert Oswald that they were not interested in finding out the information that you were asking for?

Mrs. PAINE. She offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no reason.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have copies of those letters, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. At home.

Mr. JENNER. I know now that I will be to see you on Monday.

Mrs. PAINE. Monday?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you going to be home on Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. I am flying Monday morning. Shall we go together? I am not leaving until Monday morning.

Mr. JENNER. I am going down Sunday night. So may I see those letters on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. As soon as I get home.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough----

Mrs. PAINE. I will have to translate them.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. That will take a while.

Mr. JENNER. With respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is without touching it at all.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now you have related to us the Texas School Book Depository employment, the ability to operate an automobile. I am going to read a list of names to you, and you stop me every time I read a name that is familiar to you. There are some of the Russian emigré group in and around Dallas. Some of them may not be Russian emigré group people, but some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered.

George Bouhe.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know him.

Mr. JENNER. I want also your response that you didn't hear these names discussed by either Marina or Lee.

Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard that name discussed by Marina or Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.

Mrs. PAINE. I did not hear that name discussed by either of them. I have since learned from Mrs. Ford that it was to Mrs. Ray's home that Marina went from Mrs. Ford's home in the fall of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I won't ask you--well, I have Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on my list.

You have already testified about them.

Mrs. PAINE. I have met them once; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Only on that one occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear them discussed by either Marina or Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I have never at any time heard that name.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I think I pronounce this correctly, Tatiana Biggers?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name, and I never heard it.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Teofil Meller?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name.

Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. PAINE. I met a Lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store in Irving, and I had met Marina previously. I am not certain of her last name. I am certain that Marina told me not to learn Russian from her, it was not grammatical.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

By the way, did Marina go out by herself occasionally and shop?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Alan A. Jackson III?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name.

Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory?

Mrs. PAINE. I know that name; yes. That name was mentioned by, to the best of my recollection first in my presence by, Marguerite Oswald, who told us that she had just started at the police when I first met her----

Mr. JENNER. I would like that. The first time there came to your attention and your consciousness the name Peter Gregory was when Marguerite Oswald mentioned it at the police station on the 22d of November 1963, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him in order to try to learn the Russian language at the public library.

Mr. JENNER. She so said?

Mrs. PAINE. She so said. I don't recall having heard the name previously. Although I am not certain.

Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory.

Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain I had never heard the name from either of the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Is that likewise true of Paul Gregory who is the son I may tell you of Peter Gregory?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs., I know you are familiar with this name, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford. When did you first hear of the name of those people with respect to November 22, 1963, before or after or on that very day?

Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Ford was mentioned to me by name by Marina in the fall of 1963 before the time of the assassination. Marina described to me a party at Mrs. Ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how much she admired Mrs. Ford's tastes, and said that Mrs. Ford had done most of the decorating herself.

Let me just say Marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in the fall of 1962, but she did not tell me the name of Mrs. Ford in that connection. It came up in this other connection. It is only since the assassination that I learned she had stayed briefly at Mrs. Ford's.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

That is the extent of your information with respect to the Fords at least up to November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of it.

Mr. JENNER. I wish to be certain of this and I don't recall whether I asked you and, therefore, I will risk repetition.

Did Marina and Lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to your knowledge, while Marina was living with you in the fall of 1963, just social visit, go out and make a social visit?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I meant to include whether either together as a couple or separately.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such visit.

Mr. JENNER. I think your testimony was when Lee Oswald came home on the weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With the possible exception of one instance when he went off and bought some groceries or am I wrong about that exception?

Mrs. PAINE. He went with my children to buy some popsicles while I was teaching a student, so I was not at home that time.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

We have a report, Mrs. Paine, and you might help us with it on this subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the FBI that in his opinion Lee Harvey Oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on Saturday, on Saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a 14-year-old boy. Do you recall Lee Oswald ever obtaining a haircut over any weekend while he was at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, subject to his being off the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles?

Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I was away during that instance.

Mr. JENNER. You were?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you anticipated?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, the morning of the 11th of November I was not home from something before 9 o'clock until about 2 that afternoon. I don't know what transpired during that time.

Mr. JENNER. Were there other occasions when you were off ministering to your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that nature, on a Saturday or to church on Sunday or to the local park on Sunday, that Lee Oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you would not have known whether he was on or off your premises?

Mrs. PAINE. I can think only of grocery shopping which would have been an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that I can recall in the Saturday afternoon, on a Saturday afternoon that I went to Dallas to teach one Russian student a lesson. I can't think of any other spaces of time, hours that I was away.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this gentleman also says----

Mrs. PAINE. Except the one I have just mentioned, of course, the one of November 11.

Mr. JENNER. He also says that the man he thinks was Lee Harvey Oswald not only regularly came to his shop on Friday evenings or Saturday mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon.

Do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that Lee drove your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald subscribed to any newspapers?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. What newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They came to my door. They sat around the house until the weekend when he arrived.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what newspapers those were?

Mrs. PAINE. I noticed a paper which I was told was from Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. In Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of idle curiosity if nothing else?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it was in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there something about it that indicated to you that it came from Minsk?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina told me.

Mr. JENNER. She told you. Was it a political tract or was it a newspaper as we understand newspapers?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a newspaper as Russians understand newspapers which makes it a borderline political tract.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

In addition to that Russian newspaper from Minsk was there anything----

Mrs. PAINE. There was a Russian magazine, small, Reader's Digest size.

Mr. JENNER. The witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of about nine by----

Mrs. PAINE. Six.

Mr. JENNER. Nine by six.

Is that about the size?

Mrs. PAINE. Something like that, called the Agitator, the name written in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. The word "Agitator" was written in Russian, printed in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. On the face or cover page of this document, is that true?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the entire document in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look at it?

Mrs. PAINE. Just the outside.

Mr. JENNER. Your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond reading any portion of one of the issues?

Mrs. PAINE. It never did.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall definitely the title page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any others?

Mrs. PAINE. Crocodile, which is a Russian satirical humor magazine.

Mr. JENNER. Was that in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to read it and to observe Russian humor?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It was not political in character?

Mrs. PAINE. Being satirical, of course, it made political reference but it was not particularly political in nature.

Mr. JENNER. It was not designed as a political tract, put it that way.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Russian magazine Ogonok.

Mr. JENNER. What does that mean in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. It means "bonfire" or "fire".

Mr. JENNER. Was that printed in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have--did your curiosity lead you to read any portion of it?

Mrs. PAINE. Or it may be--let's see, I am not certain in my translation, but go ahead with the question.

Mr. JENNER. You are not certain of your translation of the word?

Mrs. PAINE. Of that single word?

Mr. JENNER. Of the title of this document about which you are now speaking?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you think it means what you said it meant?

Mrs. PAINE. It has something to do with fire; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read any portion of any of those issues?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of it with respect to whether it was political or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not political.

Mr. JENNER. What was its nature?

Mrs. PAINE. Narrative, special articles of interest to the general population. Marina enjoyed reading this one.

Mr. JENNER. She enjoyed it?

Mrs. PAINE. She expressed herself as disliking the Agitator. She interpreted some of the things in Crocodile for me which I had difficulty understanding.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to Time magazine.

Mr. JENNER. Here in America?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did he read it when he come out on weekends?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. He read that first.

Mr. JENNER. Sat down and read that first.

Did he take the issue away with him when he left every week?

Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression he did.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to the Militant.

Mr. JENNER. Militant. What is the Militant?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a paper in English, newspaper style and I would say these next two----

Mr. JENNER. Published by whom?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Socialist Worker's Party?

Mrs. PAINE. I have been so told.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't know?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But was it a political tract?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Why didn't you?

Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't interested.

Mr. JENNER. Because of the nature of the document?

Mrs. PAINE. If I had had time to do much reading, I might have taken an interest but I had no time, insufficient time to do the reading I really wanted to do. He also subscribed to the Worker.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the publication of the Communist Party USA?

Mrs. PAINE. I have been told so.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read that?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you observe--have you now concluded the list of newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after the assassination. There was mail awaiting for him for that weekend which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23d, when it was announced on television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away.

Mr. JENNER. You threw them away?

Mrs. PAINE. Without opening them.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you throw them away?

Mrs. PAINE. I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't want it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, my question or query, and I think expression of surprise, is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I am sure they knew.

Mr. JENNER. How are you sure they knew?

Mrs. PAINE. Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.

Mr. JENNER. But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the Militant.

But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the Militant and you threw it away?

Mrs. PAINE. Why not?

Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in any event?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report it to the FBI in any of these interviews you had subsequently with them, or did they ask? It is two questions, if you will answer both.

Mrs. PAINE. If so, it was quite recently.

Mr. JENNER. When did the other papers begin to arrive? Did I interrupt you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The papers different from the Worker and the Militant, when did they begin to arrive at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, they began to arrive, I would say, some time after October 4th. That is, of course, my judgment. That is a rationalization.

Mr. JENNER. These magazines and newspapers you have recounted first appeared at your home after Lee Oswald came to Dallas and became employed or came to Dallas to live at your house and to seek employment?

Mrs. PAINE. He came to Dallas, he lived in Dallas, but he used my house.

Mr. JENNER. He came to your house?

Mrs. PAINE. As a residence, mailing address. Never asked to and I never complained but I noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing address.

Mr. JENNER. Up to that time and even though Marina was living with you nothing of that nature came to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time that Lee arrived at your home on or about or on the 4th of October 1963, none of these newspapers or periodicals had come to your home, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a reader of the local newspaper?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were a subscriber to what?

Mrs. PAINE. To the Irving newspaper and the Sunday Dallas Morning News.

Mr. JENNER. Did he read both of those?

Mrs. PAINE. He was very interested in seeing the Sunday paper edition especially. He read both, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. He also read the daily papers?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he wasn't there daily.

Mr. JENNER. When he was there he read it?

Mrs. PAINE. The Irving paper didn't come out on Saturday, so it was only the Sunday papers.

Mr. JENNER. But there were occasions when you had issues, the Friday issue around or Thursday issue around your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his being interested in back issues.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any letters and communications between you and Marina or between you and Lee Oswald to which you have not called my attention?

Mrs. PAINE. There never were any letters of any sort between me and Lee Oswald except unless you could include this English portion to which I have already called your attention in a letter to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. The only other letters--I have called your attention to all such letters, but I will have to wait until you are in Dallas to see the letters written since the assassination to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you this question.

You produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones that I will see when I am in Dallas which you have identified as having been written subsequent to, subsequently to, November 22, 1963, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right, you have all the correspondence.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Wait, we did omit one letter which you have from Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have it here.

Mrs. PAINE. You have no gaps that I could supply you.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate the fact I have that letter which we found not relevant and, therefore, I did not tender it. You have tendered to me everything other than those I will see when I reach Dallas.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Dr. Froelich Rainey----

Senator COOPER. May I ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been tendered and which was said not to be relevant----

Mrs. PAINE. You have a copy of it.

Senator COOPER. To whom was that letter addressed?

Mr. JENNER. That is addressed to Marina.

Senator COOPER. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the original and I also have a typewritten copy.

Senator COOPER. It has not been offered as part of evidence?

Mr. JENNER. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record.

Mrs. PAINE. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the Oswalds but to my marriage.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name----

Senator COOPER. Let me just say for the record I think that will have to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a copy of a letter as I recall?

Mrs. PAINE. Which letter are you referring to?

(Short recess.)

Senator COOPER. On the record.

Mr. JENNER. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends to cover, I hope in a hurry.

You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early morning.

Mr. JENNER. Early morning.

Did you drive right straight through to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And where, in Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the town?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for that lodging?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.