Part 15

Mrs. PAINE. That is the only way I can guess as to how this license plate number was in Oswald's room.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Hosty and I, and a second agent was with him, I don't know the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as I have already described, about the address of Oswald in Dallas. Marina was in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. She came in just as Hosty and I were closing the conversation, and I must say we were both surprised at her entering. He then took his leave immediately, and as he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and then drove back down Fifth Street.

Mr. JENNER. Now you are reporting something agent Hosty has told you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the street?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at that time, no. I was aware that he had parked his car out in front of my house. My best judgment is that the license plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from my house.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the car?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw the car.

Mr. JENNER. Parked?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I noticed it particularly. Because the first time he had come on the 1st of November, he had parked down the street, and he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front of my house. So I noticed the change that he had parked directly in front. But to the best of my recollection, in back of the Oldsmobile of my husband's.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look to see what his license number was?

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the license number was?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nor could I have seen it from my house without my glasses on. I am nearsighted, and I was not wearing them.

Mr. JENNER. But the license plate would have been visible to anybody walking down the street or who desired?

Mrs. PAINE. Walking down the street, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or looking out your garage.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think so, because to the best of my recollection, an Oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so that the cars would have been close at the bumpers.

Mr. JENNER. So the license plates would have been screened by the Oldsmobile?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the incidents?

Mrs. PAINE. There is one other thing which is a little different, and I had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. I have already said that I said to Agent Hosty that if in the future Marina and Lee are living together, and I know, or I have correspondence with them I would give him his address if he wished it. Then it was the next day or that evening or sometime shortly thereafter Marina said to me while we were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. Now my understanding is she doesn't understand English well. The word in Russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a matter of privacy for them. This surprised me. She had never spoken in this way to me before, and I didn't see that it made any difference.

Mr. JENNER. Did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of Agent Hosty?

Mrs. PAINE. So far as I could see, it arose separately.

Mr. JENNER. So far as you can recall?

Mrs. PAINE. As far as I can recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to obtain Lee Oswald's address so that you could give it to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. No. As I have testified, I really thought they had it.

Mr. JENNER. When you made the telephone call to Lee Oswald and learned he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred between Marina and Lee Oswald on which he upbraided her for having made the call, you still weren't activated to call the FBI and tell them that he was living under an assumed name, is that true?

Mrs. PAINE. That is true. I did expect to give this copy which I had made of his "Dear Sirs," letter which you have marked Commission Exhibit 103 to the FBI agent at the next meeting.

Mr. JENNER. At the time he called if he did call?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he would.

Mr. JENNER. During the interview on November 1, you have testified that Marina was present some of the time.

Mrs. PAINE. She was present virtually all of that time.

Mr. JENNER. All of the time?

Mrs. PAINE. And virtually none of the next time.

Mr. JENNER. Virtually none.

Mrs. PAINE. Just came in at the end, on the 5th.

Mr. JENNER. Was she out in the yard? Did you get that impression any time during that second interview?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she had to have been in her room the entire time.

Mr. JENNER. Are you firm, reasonably firm that Marina, even if she desired to learn of the license number on Agent Hosty's car, that she could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. She might possibly--oh, I wouldn't say that. It is conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that she could have seen it from the bedroom window.

Mr. JENNER. You are holding up exhibit number?

Mrs. PAINE. 430.

Mr. JENNER. And you are pointing to what on that exhibit?

Mrs. PAINE. The window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where I thought the car was parked. From that position, if I am correct about where the car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could have seen it if as Agent Hosty described to me later she saw it while the car was moving along the street.

Mr. JENNER. When he pulled away?

Mrs. PAINE. When he pulled away and then he came back and went the other way.

Mr. JENNER. So it is possible that she may have seen the license?

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.

Mr. JENNER. This date that you are now talking about when he parked the car in front of your house, that was November 5?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.

Mr. JENNER. Whereas on November 1, he parked the car down the street.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I might add a little more detail here if you want it. Marina and I talked about whether to tell Lee that the FBI had been out a second time, and the 5th was a Tuesday. We didn't see Lee until the 8th. She said to me that he had been upset by the FBI's coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference with his family. And I said there is no reason for him to be upset, or I think conveyed that idea. But the question of whether to tell him was settled by Marina who told him on Friday evening, the 8th, and then Lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said--I don't think I have yet said for the record--he said to me then he felt the FBI was inhibiting his activities. This is what he said. Has this been said?

Mr. JENNER. Not yet.

Mrs. PAINE. All right, I have said it. I said to him "Don't be worried about it. You have your rights to your views, whether they are popular or not." But I could see that he didn't take that view but rather was seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. At this time or another, I don't recall certainly, I asked whether he was worried about losing his job, and he was.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say so, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly a telephone conversation with him. On one of those in which he called out to talk to Marina, I judge, and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and I talked. I don't recall the exact circumstances but I do recall it, and I said to him if his views, not any references now to the FBI or their interest in him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the American Civil Liberties Union, that he should in our country have a right to unpopular views or any other kind.

This I believe was after he had been to an American Civil Liberties Union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been October 25.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response?

Mrs. PAINE. He was pleased, I felt. He felt in a sense reassured. And indeed I think his response was to join, because it was later reported in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine----

Mrs. PAINE. I am putting in a lot of guesswork.

Mr. JENNER. Am I interrupting you?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It is just that I wonder if you want me to dredge this deeply into things I cannot be absolutely certain about.

Mr. JENNER. We would like your best recollection. We do hesitate about speculation.

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

Mr. JENNER. When we are asking about factual matters. We do ask for your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate when we are asking for that rather than for facts. Have you now stated all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to Lee Oswald of the visit of FBI agents or any discussion with Mr. Oswald at any time while he visited your home during this period in 1963 prior to November 22 with respect to FBI agent visits?

Have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I think one other thing. Agent Hosty asked me, and I am not certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as I can recall Marina wasn't present, if I thought this was a mental problem, his words referring to Lee Oswald, and I said I didn't understand the mental processes of anyone who could espouse the Marxist philosophy, but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or unable to conduct himself in normal society.

I did tell Lee that this question had been asked. He gave no reply, but more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I have clearly exhausted it.

Senator COOPER. Who asked the question?

Mrs. PAINE. Hosty asked the question "Is this a mental problem?"

Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear Oswald express any anger toward either the agents or the FBI, as an agency?

Mrs. PAINE. He expressed distinct irritation that he was being bothered. That is how he looked upon it.

Senator COOPER. You said that you thought he was concerned about its effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that?

Mrs. PAINE. And he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do.

Senator COOPER. Any irritation or anger because they had interviewed?

Mrs. PAINE. In tone of voice, yes.

Senator COOPER. What would it be like?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, irritated. He said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities."

Senator COOPER. Did he swear at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. He used no language.

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Senator COOPER. Did he raise the tone of his voice?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. Did he show----

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing more than an edge to his voice I would say.

Senator COOPER. Did he direct it against any individual FBI agent.

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. I have one other recollection that possibly should be put in regarding the conversation with Agent Hosty the first time when Marina was present. We discussed many things, just as you would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and----

Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion between you and Marina with the agent present or not present.

Mrs. PAINE. He was present.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Discussion between the three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. And I can't recall certainly who brought it up, but I think Marina asked of Hosty what did he think of Castro, and he said, "Well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the American newspapers of Castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't like those intentions or actions."

And Marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that perhaps he was not given much chance by the American press, or that the press was not entirely fair to him. This I translated.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of it? Now have you exhausted your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I hope so. I have exhausted myself.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, do you have another question?

Senator COOPER. Not on this subject.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to your furnishing of the name and the telephone number of Agent Hosty. In Commission Exhibit No. 18, which is in evidence, which was Lee Oswald's diary--by the way, may I hand the exhibit to the witness, Mr. Chairman?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This is an address book. In any event it is in evidence as Exhibit No. 18. Have you ever seen that booklet before?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Examine the outside of the booklet. Have you seen this?

Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen this.

Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that in Lee Oswald's possession?

Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen it at all.

Mr. JENNER. There is an entry as follows. Would you help me Mr. Redlich. Would you read it please?

Mr. REDLICH. "November 1, 1963 FBI agent James P. Hosty."

Mrs. PAINE. Junior?

Mr. REDLICH. Just above the word "Hosty" appears in parentheses "RI 1-1121," and underneath "James P. Hosty" appears "MU 8605." Underneath that is "1114 Commerce Street Dallas." I would just like to correct upon the record that the phone number originally read is "RI-11211."

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What is that phone number?

Mrs. PAINE. That phone number I recognize from my own use of it is to the FBI in Dallas, my use since the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. And the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series of numbers "MU 8605."

Mrs. PAINE. Is not known to me.

Mr. JENNER. What is the system of license plate numbering and lettering employed in Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not acquainted with any particular system. They use both letters and numbers.

Mr. JENNER. I call your attention in connection with this entry that it is dated November 1, 1963, and there does appear in it the license number.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it?

Mrs. PAINE. May I point out also that he must have put this down after November 1st, or at least that evening. He could not have written it down with----

Mr. JENNER. It had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And the agent's address.

Mrs. PAINE. I would think he could as well have added--you don't want my thinking--this number.

Mr. JENNER. The reason I call that to your attention, Mrs. Paine, it still does not stimulate your recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Any differently than before. You did not furnish the license number.

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly did not. To the best of my recollection I did not put down the address either.

Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview of November 5th, did you not say to Agent Hosty that Lee had visited at your home November 2 and 3?

Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible, likely.

Mr. JENNER. And in this connection I am at liberty to report to you that Agent Hosty's report is that you did advise him that Oswald had visited at your home on November 2 and November 3. Does that serve to refresh your recollection that you did so advise him?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that.

Mr. JENNER. Now did you express an opinion to Agent Hosty that Oswald was "an illogical person?"

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did, in answer to his question was this a mental problem, as I have just described to you.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is all right. And did you also say to Agent Hosty that Oswald himself had "Admitted being a Trotskyite Communist."

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I doubt seriously I said Trotskyite Communist. I would think Leninist Communist, but I am not certain.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a remark of similar import?

Mrs. PAINE. Reference to Trotsky surprises me. I have come since the assassination to wonder if he had Trotskyite views. I have become interested in what such views are since the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection you don't recall making that comment?

Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't think that I had the knowledge by which to make such a statement even.

Mr. JENNER. Now after this rationalization you have made, Mrs. Paine, it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. What was the second item that I told Hosty he had been out on the second and third? I am just trying to clarify here.

Mr. JENNER. You had told him that Lee Oswald had been at your home November 2 and 3, that you told him that Lee Oswald was an illogical person?

Mrs. PAINE. That is it.

Mr. JENNER. And third, that you told him that Oswald had admitted being a Trotskyite Communist.

Mrs. PAINE. I may have said that. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. You may have said the latter.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you did say it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. I am surprised, however, by the word at that point.

Mr. JENNER. Now do you recall a telephone interview or call by Agent Hosty on the 27th of January 1964? Perhaps I had better put it this way to you. Do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the assassination that you received from Agent Hosty, that you did receive such telephone calls?

Mrs. PAINE. I did, and visits also, at the house.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall he called you on the 27th of January 1964 and that he inquired whether you had given Lee Oswald the license number of his automobile when he had been at your home? You stated that you had not.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

I would have thought that was a face to face interview but I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. But you also told Agent Hosty on that occasion, "However, this license number could have easily been observed by Marina Oswald since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street where this car would have been parked."

Mrs. PAINE. I doubt I said "easily."

Mr. JENNER. But you could have said that the license number could have been observed by Marina from her bedroom?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of this, that it was not a telephone interview.

Mr. JENNER. Telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at which you made that statement, that Marina could have seen the license?

Mrs. PAINE. That Marina could have?

Mr. JENNER. You do recall the incident. You don't recall whether it was at your home or whether it was by telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly recall talking with Agent Hosty and on at least one occasion about how that license number got in Oswald's possession.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a telephone interview by an FBI agent Lee, Ivan D. Lee on the 28th of December 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. The name is not familiar to me. A great many FBI agents----

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which you reported to an FBI agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the Houston Post?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You recall that?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview, you made reference to a newspaper reporter, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. I did. His name is Lonny Hudkins.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified had advised you that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother had been working for a party in Forth Worth during September and October 1962 as a practical nurse, and according to the reporter, Mrs. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing important anti-subversive work?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident so we will have the facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record?

Mrs. PAINE. I will. I would not have recalled the date, but I knew it to be toward the end of 1963. I was called on the telephone by Lonny Hudkins, whom I had never met, announced himself as from the Houston Post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to talk with me about, could he come out to the house? And he then indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very accurately reported in what you have just read. I called the FBI really to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. It struck me as a very unresponsible thing to print, and I wanted to be able to convince Hudkins of that fact. I was hopeful that they might be willing to make a flat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that would have been caused by his printing this.

Now shall I go on to tell about the encounter which followed with Mr. Hudkins, and something of that content?

Mr. JENNER. I am a little at a loss. Why don't you start because I can't anticipate.

Mrs. PAINE. Whether it is important?

Mr. JENNER. You haven't related this to me. Are these statements you made to the FBI that you are about to relate?

Mrs. PAINE. If they asked. I don't recall specifically. I certainly recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with Lonny Hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what I said in the situation.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report to the FBI that Mr. Hudkins had said to you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some confirmation if possible of the possibility Oswald was actually working on behalf of the United States Government prior to the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. I was aware that was his purpose.

Mr. JENNER. That you knew of no such situation, and ventured the opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. I went on to say that Mrs. Oswald, senior, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, could well have said to this matron a full year back and more that her son was doing important anti-subversive work for the government. This was 1962 he was talking about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to have true. And I did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to him "You don't think you have a story here, do you?"

Mr. JENNER. You also recall----

Mrs. PAINE. May I put in another point here?

Mr. JENNER. In connection with this subject matter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. I called and the man to whom I talked, I don't know if it was Lee, or I think it was someone else who answered first, I am not certain at all.

Mr. JENNER. Odum?

Mrs. PAINE. Odum? It certainly was not Odum. I know him. But someone answered the phone and I told this to him, and perhaps it was Lee. He said to me in response to my inquiring "What shall I do, here is this man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do you?" I said, "No".

"Then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the subject?"

"Yes."

"Then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him."

Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly did. And I felt as though I really shouldn't have bothered them. This was not of interest to them. But then I was called back later by the FBI on the same subject.

Mr. JENNER. And you reported that conversation, the subsequent call back by the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. No. You have content of the first conversation I think there, isn't that so, or it might have been?

Mr. JENNER. There are a series, Mrs. Paine, that run in this order. The first was on December 28, 1963. The conversation occurred between you and an Agent Lee, and it was a telephone interview?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.