Part 14

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she told me she lived on something under, around $200 a month and this was more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were feeling rich on $200 a month, and I could see she was a good planner in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes.

Representative FORD. But even after he gained employment at the Texas School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money for her to contribute to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever express any concern about this?

Mrs. PAINE. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should.

Mr. JENNER. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the subject occasionally?

Mrs. PAINE. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Representative FORD. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this afternoon. Thank you.

Mr. McCLOY. I have no more questions.

I would like to say this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not----

Mrs. PAINE. I do understand.

Mr. McCLOY. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the facts. Anything that you can contribute before you complete your testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it for the benefit of the further security of the country.

Mrs. PAINE. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it.

Mr. JENNER. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods.

Mr. McCLOY. Anything that is in the background that you have----

Mrs. PAINE. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking distance. It was longer than that.

If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person to show just exactly what the distance was.

Representative FORD. What was his reaction when you objected? First, was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what kind?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind of person this was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly drive it home."

From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home.

Mr. JENNER. In the fall you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he would be treated. It is a whole subject really.

Representative FORD. Can you give us a little more information on what you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident involving the car?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to learn to drive on the street.

Representative FORD. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your admonition that he shouldn't drive?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so he didn't have to stop.

Representative FORD. You just suggested it might be better?

Mrs. PAINE. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way home I would drive.

Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I imagine, except implicitly.

It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was secreting that weapon on your premises?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there.

Mr. McCLOY. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the finding of the rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine.

Senator COOPER. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. We will start now. We will continue until Senator Cooper comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. I will be busy with Mr. Rankin some of the time.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mrs. Paine, this morning I was seeking to qualify and introduce in evidence Commission Exhibit 425, which, at the time I had it in my hand, consisted of one page. You called my attention to the fact that it was a letter dated October 14, 1963, to your mother by you in your handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet, which consists front and reverse of two pages. Then you tendered me the second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for its use in this connection.

During the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its introduction in evidence.

Mrs. PAINE. I have no objection to its introduction. It refers just to personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder what it is. It is better not to wonder.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. And it does give the full context of the really pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which you made allusion yesterday in your testimony.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four.

Is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes it is.

Mr. JENNER. And it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which you referred yesterday and again this morning, Commission Exhibit No. 425?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. And that page is in the same condition now as when--that is pages three and four, as when--you dispatched the entire letter to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer Commission Exhibit No. 425 in evidence. It has been heretofore marked.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 425 was marked and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. There have been marked as Commission's exhibits in this series 451 and 453 to 456, a series of five colored photographs purporting to be photographs of one Curtis La Verne Crafard, taken on the 28th day of November 1963. Mrs. Paine would you be good enough to look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, I wish to ask you a question.

Mrs. PAINE. I have looked at them all.

Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and appearance of Lee Oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man depicted in those photographs, the exhibit numbers of which I have given, and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, do you recall whether you have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on those photographs?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not seen him.

The CHAIRMAN. May I see those, please?

Mrs. PAINE. Should I say that one picture in particular struck me as looking similar to Lee?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. When the Chief Justice has concluded his examination I will have you pick out that one in particular. Thank you, sir. When you select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse side?

Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit No. 453. Clearly the shoulders are broader than with Lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls Oswald to my mind.

Mr. JENNER. And the jacket?

Mrs. PAINE. And the attire.

Mr. JENNER. The attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first one you have before you, what is the number of that?

Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit 451.

Mr. JENNER. I asked you to describe Lee Oswald, his general attire. Did he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And referring to the other photographs, you say that man's attire is similar to that Lee Oswald normally effected and employed.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It certainly is.

Mr. JENNER. I offer Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456 were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, the Commissioners this morning, had especially directed questions to you evidencing their interest in FBI interviews.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you now continue to preside please, so I will be free to work with Mr. Rankin a little this afternoon. I will remain here though for a while.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I gather the first interview by any FBI agent to your knowledge was on the first day of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I don't really think interview is a fully accurate word.

Mr. JENNER. What word would you like to use?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt that the agent stopped to see whether the Oswalds, either Mrs. Oswald or Mr., were living there, and to make the acquaintance of me. He said that he had talked with my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, the previous time.

Mr. JENNER. The pronoun you are using refers to the FBI agent.

Mrs. PAINE. He, the FBI agent.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, whether the Oswalds lived here, and she had said that she didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that the husband came out some week ends.

Mr. JENNER. Is this what the agent told you?

Mrs. PAINE. No, the neighbor told me.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And I judged he wanted to find out directly.

Mr. JENNER. Had you finished?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who interviewed you or conversed with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I have subsequently learned his name, yes. It was James Hosty.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the name?

Mrs. PAINE. James Hosty, H-O-S-T-Y.

Mr. JENNER. I don't wish you to give that full interview again because you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning. But I do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give Agent Hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from Lee Oswald as to where he might be reached in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. He asked me if I knew where Lee lived. I did think of these phone numbers, but----

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the----

Mrs. PAINE. Or later.

Mr. JENNER. Of the interview?

Mrs. PAINE. At least between that time and the time he came again, but I have been impressed with what I have now concluded was a mistaken impression I have which effected my behavior; namely, that the FBI was in possession of a great deal of information, or so I thought, and certainly would find it very easy to find out where Lee Oswald was living. I really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to find out from me. This is a feeling stemming from my understanding of the difficulties they faced working in a free society. I would behave quite differently now, but I have learned a lot from this particular experience.

Mr. JENNER. Now was there a subsequent interview?

Mrs. PAINE. There was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. We didn't as much as sit down. But he asked again about an address. I had none. I did say that I expected----

Mr. JENNER. An address as to where Lee resided?

Mrs. PAINE. In town where he resided. I did say that I expected that when Marina moved into an apartment with Lee again, as we all thought would occur, that I would be in contact with her, and that I would be perfectly willing to give him information as to that address when I had such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way I would have the address.

Mr. JENNER. Were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any FBI agent prior to November 22, 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. I have mentioned two times.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And that was all.

Mr. JENNER. That was all. So up to the time of the assassination, the only interviews with the FBI to your knowledge were on the first?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You will recall your testimony yesterday, Mrs. Paine, of the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request of Marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by Lee Oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who answered the telephone stated that there was no Lee Oswald living there. Do you recall your testimony on that score?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report that to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of the proposed letter which I think is before you, and that is Commission exhibit number?

Mrs. PAINE. 130.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call the FBI and advise them of that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when I asked you whether you had given Agent Hosty the telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not identical. Certainly I didn't think that they had any information of such a letter, whereas I did think they knew where he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come to the house and see him at my house as he came on weekends.

Mr. JENNER. You did say to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. That he would be at your home on weekends.

Mrs. PAINE. And I judged by the fact they didn't come that this was not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately. Both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that followed it, where Marina reported to me that he was using a different name, were something new and different in the situation that made me feel this was a man I hadn't accurately perceived before.

I have said my impression in reading the letter was--I have said something similar to this--that of a small boy wanting to get in good with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. I didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something out of Pravda in his terminology. And I knew, as I have testified, that several of the statements in it were flatly false, and I wondered about the rest, and then when I heard that he was using a different name, that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Now what time of day did the interview on November 1 take place?

Mrs. PAINE. Afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Late?

Mrs. PAINE. Middle of the afternoon. My memory is there were no children around which means it was nap time.

Mr. JENNER. It couldn't have been along about 5 o'clock in the afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a Friday, wasn't it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, it was.

Mrs. PAINE. And he probably came out that Friday.

Mr. JENNER. You were just telling the agent, you had told the agent, had you not, that he came on weekends.

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. And he arrived on Fridays?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. And this was a Friday?

Mrs. PAINE. It was, and you will recall yesterday----

Mr. JENNER. And you did tell the agent that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It had to have been that session. I know I certainly told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting was very brief and had only to do with the address.

Mr. JENNER. And that was not on a Friday?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the agent remaining because Lee Oswald would be along, he was expected?

Mrs. PAINE. No. May I interject here to recall to your mind that as I looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any weekend other than the weekend of October 12, that Lee arrived on a Saturday instead of a Friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction. And I don't recall whether he arrived that Friday evening.

I do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and I gave him the piece of paper on which I had written Mr. Hosty's name and the normal telephone number for the FBI in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation. May I suggest this to you as possibly refreshing your recollection. That on that Friday afternoon, which I may say to you now, Mrs. Paine, is reported by Agent Hosty as having taken place on November 1, and he has made his report accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that Lee Oswald would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would not be or that he would be, that you would expect him?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I said he came out here on weekends and he could be seen then.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. And I have no recollection of ever thinking he was not going to come that weekend.

Mr. JENNER. You have also testified that you were also advised in advance when he was coming?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He asked permission. So if he were coming on the 1st of November, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he was coming, would you not, according to your testimony.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would think so.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall saying anything to Agent Hosty that he was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there.

Mrs. PAINE. I may have. I don't specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that you told him at least generally that Lee Oswald came to your home on weekends?

Mrs. PAINE. I feel certain of that.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, Agent Hosty did not remain?

Mrs. PAINE. He did not remain. I don't think it was very close to 5 when he left. It was earlier in the afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. You are inclined to think the interview took place earlier in the afternoon, that is prior to 5 o'clock?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; more likely 2 to 3 or 3:30.

Mr. JENNER. During the slumber hours of your children?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now you are certain in your own mind that you had no interview or no FBI agent interviewed you prior to November 1?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And if an FBI agent did interview you, you were not aware that you were being interviewed?

Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that on October 29, that would be 2 days before the Friday session that you have testified about, that some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. October 29 is a Tuesday. I don't recall any such encounter. Written on my calendar is "Dal" for Dallas "Junie" meaning we went to a clinic in Dallas in the morning. It doesn't say about the rest of the day.

Mr. JENNER. Now when you reported to Lee Oswald the name of the agent and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper.

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. And handed the slip of paper to him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation between you then as to FBI agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed Lee Oswald.

Mrs. PAINE. There may have been. I am certainly clear that I was told probably by Marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them, that he had been interviewed in Fort Worth when they first returned from the Soviet Union. This I knew before the time of the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say whether she had been interviewed in Fort Worth?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. This was only that Lee Oswald had been interviewed at Fort Worth?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation in which either Lee or Marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been interviewed either in New Orleans or in Dallas.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in New Orleans or Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. You made some reference yesterday, and I want to keep it in context, to the license number of the FBI agent.

Mrs. PAINE. Not in testimony. Did I?

Mr. JENNER. I thought you had.

Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps.

Mr. JENNER. It would be well if we went into that. Would you please recite what that incident was?

Mrs. PAINE. I am confused by the question.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's license number from his automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. I was told by Agent Hosty well after the assassination that they had found in Oswald's room in Dallas a slip of paper which included not only Hosty's name and the telephone number of the FBI in Dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect, one number incorrect, of the car that Hosty had driven out. This was the first I had heard anything about their having been a license plate.

Mr. JENNER. You did not take----

Mrs. PAINE. Number taken down.

Mr. JENNER. You did not take the number down and place it on that piece of paper?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or give it to Lee Harvey Oswald or to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not. I was never at any time interested in the license plate number. I wondered why anyone else would have been.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, the first you heard of the license number was after the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have now related?

Mrs. PAINE. I might describe the second meeting with Mr. Hosty a little more in detail.

Mr. JENNER. That is November 1?