Part 13

I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, but did not express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will, but I did say I would make the call for him.

Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call was identical.

Mr. JENNER. This is speculation?

Mrs. PAINE. This is speculation but the content of the second call was almost identical.

Mr. JENNER. The phone rang?

Mrs. PAINE. He asked me to contact John Abt.

Mr. JENNER. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He wanted me to call this lawyer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously?

Mrs. PAINE. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said he could call, make this call.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already just called you about the same subject matter?

Mrs. PAINE. He may have added.

Mr. JENNER. Did you, please?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all.

Mr. JENNER. At no time during either of those conversations did he deny that he was in any way involved in this situation?

Mrs. PAINE. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or why he needed a lawyer.

Mr. JENNER. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, did he?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't say where he was?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. He just started out saying what you now say he said?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely innocent of any charges that had been made against him?

Mrs. PAINE. He did not say that.

Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of the President or the slaying of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Representative FORD. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. About what time?

Mrs. PAINE. Four, perhaps in the afternoon.

Representative FORD. Had you seen him the day before?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Who was in the house with you when that call came in?

Mrs. PAINE. Just my children.

Mr. McCLOY. Just your children.

Representative FORD. While you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house.

Representative FORD. They were there alone?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. McCLOY. Did they indicate--were they still there when you got back?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.

Mr. McCLOY. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.

Mr. JENNER. A third time?

Mrs. PAINE. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please.

Mrs. PAINE. It was around 9:30 in the evening.

Mr. JENNER. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone else.

Mr. JENNER. But you have no definite recollection that even he was present?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The phone rang, you answered it.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice.

Mr. JENNER. Whose was it?

Mrs. PAINE. It was Lee Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the conversations in the afternoon or in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. He spoke in English the entire conversation.

Mr. JENNER. The two in the afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to her.

Mr. JENNER. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He said, he wanted me to--he said he thought she should be at my house. He felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me to----

Mr. JENNER. Did he sound irritated?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house.

Mr. JENNER. And he so instructed you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is what he said?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation.

Mr. JENNER. What response did you give to his direction?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I would try to reach her.

Mr. JENNER. His direction----

Mrs. PAINE. And tell her his message.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. Paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?

Mrs. PAINE. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.

Mr. JENNER. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any charges against him?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the assassination mentioned at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I am turning detective in this small way.

Mr. JENNER. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI agents in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That day.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then dialed----

Mr. JENNER. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the affirmative?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison, he don't know the things we are up against, the things we have to face. What he wants doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same message in Russian to her but there was no further----

Mr. JENNER. What response did Marina make to the message that you conveyed to her?

Mrs. PAINE. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of her staying with you, say, the next day?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that occasion it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him.

Mr. JENNER. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude or any comments he made mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on the 24th of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no answer. That I certainly remember.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever reach Abt?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had been unable to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. PAINE. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station itself.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no effort to call the police station.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Other than what you have now related?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone calls from him or what?

Mrs. PAINE. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place for her.

Representative FORD. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just----

Mrs. PAINE. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before.

Representative FORD. Never heard of him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Senator COOPER. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having obstacles or having troubles?

Mrs. PAINE. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she was at my home?

Senator COOPER. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to tell Marina.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. I think you said she said something about----

Mrs. PAINE. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth about--had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this sticks in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the 22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the police station?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you on the 23d of November?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The 24th?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of Marina's things.

Mr. JENNER. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You had no contact at all with him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that.

Representative FORD. Did she know it?

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation to the things she just had to say.

Senator COOPER. What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer in the bedroom where they had stayed.

Mr. JENNER. Did she sound less than cordial----

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but was under a tremendous strain.

Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made of the death of her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet dead.

Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't mention it?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not tell her; no.

Mr. JENNER. Did you--it might be natural that you would express sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what caused that, I can't identify.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to do----

Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying any particular things.

Mr. JENNER. Was under restraint?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. From some outside source?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the things that she directed----

Mr. JENNER. The police officers had already arrived at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were there already on other business.

Mr. JENNER. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; when Marina made the call.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called when you finished that conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You told them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had the same information separately a different way from a car radio or something at the same time, which was to put some things together to take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit cases we talked about yesterday with baby things.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or three. Were there as many as three?

Mrs. PAINE. I think there were as many as three, including a very small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and included that along with clothes. I sent a childs toy, some things that I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well as the individual items she had asked for specifically.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you and Marina when she telephoned you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; the situation was strained.

Mr. McCLOY. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. No; because her husband had been shot.

Mr. McCLOY. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any indication of any coolness between you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; none I detected.

Mr. JENNER. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. On the previous day?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of Marina toward you as a person?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you felt any evidence of that since?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go into it now.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you left, so that is what I have done.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you completed your report?

Mrs. PAINE. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite post the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to move the blanket? When did he come to----

Mrs. PAINE. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times that he had worked in the garage.

Mr. McCLOY. That was all through September, October?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; September, October; yes.

Mr. McCLOY. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to you any--about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been compelled to move?

Mrs. PAINE. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. It didn't come up until after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection from what document, please?

Mrs. PAINE. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I can tell when Michael was in the house.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission exhibit number what?

Mrs. PAINE. 401. But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they before the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1. I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Marina was present?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina was present.

Mr. JENNER. Did she overhear?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain--I tried to translate some of this conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to her?

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to translate in the reverse to him?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you.

Mr. JENNER. You testified to this yesterday afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought I did. It sounds familiar.

Mr. McCLOY. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina.

Mr. JENNER. There was a succeeding date?

Mrs. PAINE. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by the FBI was November 5, the first time.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall----

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall it was in the early part of the week.

Mr. JENNER. Did the same gentleman call?

Mrs. PAINE. The same gentleman. He had someone else along.

Mr. JENNER. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty.

Mr. McCLOY. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the activity of Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I have, the questions I have.

Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn for the luncheon period?

Senator COOPER. Are you going to continue this afternoon?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Senator COOPER. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr. McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of Lee and Marina?