Part 12

Mrs. PAINE. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not also be charged before the day was out with the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. JENNER. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside?

Mrs. PAINE. No crinkling.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the package in the way of paper.

Mrs. PAINE. Not anything in the way of paper.

Mr. JENNER. Or wrapping.

Mrs. PAINE. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but that was my cement floor.

Mr. JENNER. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside?

Mrs. PAINE. No such sensation.

Mr. JENNER. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you identified yesterday.

Mrs. PAINE. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. She was very white, and of course I judged----

Mr. JENNER. Did she blanch?

Mrs. PAINE. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point.

Representative FORD. How close was she standing to it.

Mrs. PAINE. From here to there, about 6 feet.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come over directly, for which I may say I was very glad.

Mr. JENNER. How far away from your home--where did he live?

Mrs. PAINE. It would take about a half hour drive--he was working--from where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue?

Mrs. PAINE. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to get to it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he lived?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the address?

Mrs. PAINE. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, 2377 Dalworth.

Mr. JENNER. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H?

Mrs. PAINE. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. PAINE. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where he worked.

Mr. JENNER. What distance in miles from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I don't know; 20 minutes to where he lived.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. The police officers then asked if Michael would also accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. She has no telephone. I need to walk to her.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina in the meantime?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to ask if--there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of the person I normally have for a baby-sitter. It was now after school or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business.

We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get them back at that time."

And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is mine."

And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As much answer as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to you."

And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us. They interviewed Michael at one point separately.

Mr. JENNER. Separately?

Mrs. PAINE. And they interviewed Marina while I was present.

Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret for her?

Mrs. PAINE. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I said "yes, that is true."

Then at the police station----

Representative FORD. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car?

Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall.

Representative FORD. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to a limited degree?

Mrs. PAINE. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it.

They then brought in----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if she could identify the gun as being her husband's.

She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely recall the sight on the top of it.

Mr. JENNER. The telescope sight?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had never met her before.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. I had never talked with her.

Mr. JENNER. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said that she was to come?

Mrs. PAINE. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to work in the afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. What time was this about?

Mrs. PAINE. She heard it?

Mr. JENNER. No; that she came?

Mrs. PAINE. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during October and November Marina had told me she regretted that Lee didn't wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. There was a warm greeting in the police station.

Mr. JENNER. Between whom?

Mrs. PAINE. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald entered?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me later.

Mr. JENNER. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert Oswald might or would arrive on the scene?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing that day about Robert at all.

Mr. JENNER. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was about to--that they had any advance advice that he was going to be present?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the people.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any indication to the contrary?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come.

Mr. JENNER. There was this lack of prior notice?

Mrs. PAINE. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time?

Mrs. PAINE. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three children.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked if she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed.

Mr. JENNER. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that night?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went back there. We were taken back by police officers.

Mr. JENNER. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance on the part of anybody that she return to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever by anybody?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody.

The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period that I will put in here.

Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But my curiosity overcame my politeness.

Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald----

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. That if they were prominent people there would be three of the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and coming to his aid.

She felt that since they were just small people that there wouldn't--they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be given it, but she didn't feel that way.

Mr. JENNER. You made no impression on her?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no impression on her.

Mr. JENNER. I take it----

Mrs. PAINE. She made an impression on me.

Mr. JENNER. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. It would avoid confusion.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine appeared. I was----

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any advance notice?

Mrs. PAINE. We had had no advance notice.

Mr. JENNER. Nobody did?

Mrs. PAINE. Nobody did.

Mr. JENNER. You in particular and none of the others in the room?

Mrs. PAINE. None of the others.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain that none of the others and myself----

Mr. JENNER. At least that was your impression at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. That they had no prior information that these people might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them.

Mr. JENNER. Had that occurred to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. What connection?

Mrs. PAINE. Between the need for money.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a lawyer.

Mr. JENNER. And she was the one who raised that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she raised it.

Mr. JENNER. For commercialization of the story?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer.

Mr. JENNER. That was all instigated by her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room.

Mr. JENNER. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a picture from your living room?

Mrs. PAINE. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw him wind his roll.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a picture.

I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to any other news media representatives until they had talked with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to me.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that implied?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 the next morning or closer to 8.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "we", who do you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. The household. I think we had not yet--we pretty much woke all at once.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband remain at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal counsel immediately.

They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts and reaction in that direction?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear impression that----

Mr. JENNER. From her conversation with the Life representatives?

Mrs. PAINE. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her until March 9, in the evening, very recently.

Mr. JENNER. March 9, 1964?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Just a week or so ago?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that morning, later that morning.

Mr. JENNER. To see you, at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston Post--well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as I recall, and talked with these people.

I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping.

Mr. JENNER. He left your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas Police Office and asked if they could search.

This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, "I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching."

I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I don't normally lock my door when I go shopping.

Representative FORD. Did you take your children shopping?

Mrs. PAINE. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call.

Mr. JENNER. The phone rang?

Mrs. PAINE. The phone rang; I answered it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said?

Mr. JENNER. What did the voice say?

Mrs. PAINE. The voice said: "This is Lee."

Mr. JENNER. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said.

Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone number of an office in New York and a residence in New York.

Mr. JENNER. Two telephone numbers he gave you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say who Mr. John Abt was?

Mrs. PAINE. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have.

Mr. JENNER. Represent him?

Mrs. PAINE. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to Mr. Abt if you reached him?

Mrs. PAINE. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would serve as attorney for Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of the entire conversation, as you now can recall?

Mrs. PAINE. There is a little more that is----

Senator COOPER. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember it, everything that he said and you said?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.