Part 11

Mr. JENNER. And did she speak to you and to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more than, "Have you heard?".

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs. Reynolds?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Roberts.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that morning--if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown paper.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you wrapped that package yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please?

Mrs. PAINE. They were a light weight.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; do you still have them?

Mrs. PAINE. I still have them.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods.

Mr. JENNER. Are they flat on one side?

Mrs. PAINE. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a quarter of an inch thick.

Mr. JENNER. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the edges of the rod slip over?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?

Mrs. PAINE. Sometime previously I had.

Senator COOPER. How long before?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, possibly a year.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly a year.

Senator COOPER. As far as you know, they had never been changed?

Mrs. PAINE. Moved about, but not changed.

Senator COOPER. Can you just describe the length?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.

Mrs. PAINE. They would be 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator COOPER. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the size, the length of the rods were at the time you wrapped them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. How long?

Mrs. PAINE. Didn't I answer about 36 inches?

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they were then their minimum length, unexpanded?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36 inches long?

Mrs. PAINE. Something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how many of them were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Two.

Mr. JENNER. These were lightweight metal?

Mrs. PAINE. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and longer.

Mr. JENNER. In that same package?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped up just to keep the dust off were two Venetian blinds. I guess they were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull blinds in their place.

Mr. JENNER. And had you wrapped them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How many were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Two.

Mr. JENNER. And what was their length?

Mrs. PAINE. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the back bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have those curtain rods?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. You believe so, or you know; which?

Mrs. PAINE. I think Michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he did or didn't look?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there?

Mrs. PAINE. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper.

Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?

Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.

Mr. JENNER. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection it was.

Mr. JENNER. What about the Venetian blind package?

Mrs. PAINE. Still there, still wrapped.

Mr. JENNER. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there?

Mrs. PAINE. A week and a half, or a week later.

Senator COOPER. At any time?

Mrs. PAINE. Did I, personally?

Senator COOPER. Have you seen these packages since the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me I recall seeing a package.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I seem to recall seeing the package.

Senator COOPER. Both of them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Or just one?

Mrs. PAINE. Both.

Senator COOPER. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.

Senator COOPER. But you never did, yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not my most pressing----

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.

Senator COOPER. I know that. But you must have read after the assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember reading that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I remember reading that.

Senator COOPER. Didn't that lead you--Did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there?

Mrs. PAINE. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children.

Senator COOPER. I understand you had many things to do.

Mrs. PAINE. So I did not.

Senator COOPER. You never did do it?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking out there. This package with brown paper was still there.

Mr. JENNER. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.

Mr. JENNER. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?

Mrs. PAINE. Along the west edge of the garage, up here.

Mr. JENNER. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were.

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"----

Mrs. PAINE. "And thin."

Mr. JENNER. What is the next word?

Mrs. PAINE. "Curtain rods."

Mr. JENNER. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and one with the Venetian blinds?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.

Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very lightweight metal?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They were not round.

Mr. JENNER. They were flat and slender?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were not at all heavy?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held them up on the wall.

Mr. JENNER. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would you draw a picture of the rods?

Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over a slight bit, and then this is recessed.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did you say this was, in the lower diagram?

Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down.

Mr. JENNER. Now, where was the break?

Mrs. PAINE. The break?

Mr. JENNER. You said they were extension.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be like that.

Mr. JENNER. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The double line indicates what on either side?

Mrs. PAINE. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us.

Mrs. PAINE. You are perfectly welcome to them.

Mr. JENNER. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the package until we arrive?

Mrs. PAINE. I won't even look, then.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?

Mrs. PAINE. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the window.

Mr. JENNER. And "B"?

Mrs. PAINE. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from outside the house; the window.

Mr. JENNER. While the rod was in place?

Mrs. PAINE. While the rod was in place.

Mr. JENNER. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side of the rod?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each end?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in the rod.

I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has testified.

Senator COOPER. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods was mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no such conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of curtain rods--had that ever been mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. It had not been mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. Never by anybody?

Mrs. PAINE. By anybody.

Mr. JENNER. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?

Mrs. PAINE. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served at these different windows.

Mr. JENNER. The rods were identical in length when unextended?

Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended; yes.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended.

Mr. JENNER. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as great as 42 inches?

Mrs. PAINE. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used for.

Mr. JENNER. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And we will know exactly their length, extended and unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it is more that width than 36.

Mr. JENNER. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the width or the length of the rods is when not extended?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.

Mr. JENNER. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?

Mr. LIEBELER. About 28 inches.

Mr. JENNER. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, gentlemen, if you have any questions.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?

Mrs. PAINE. Not the Dallas police.

Mr. McCLOY. Not the Dallas police?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such question.

Mr. McCLOY. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are aware of?

Mrs. PAINE. You are aware what the police took. I never did know exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods having left.

Mr. McCLOY. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to you about curtain rods?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely no.

Mr. McCLOY. But possibly some member of the FBI did?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I can't recall.

Mr. McCLOY. You can't recall?

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you have now testified?

Mrs. PAINE. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. PAINE. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.

Mr. JENNER. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about which you have now testified?

Mrs. PAINE. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall that.

Representative FORD. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.

Representative FORD. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.

Mrs. PAINE. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon which----

Mr. JENNER. The note was found?

Mrs. PAINE. The note was found.

Representative FORD. You kept it in the lower drawer?

Mrs. PAINE. Along with some gum tape and string.

Representative FORD. And this is the section shown on Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, 28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many curtain rods there were?

Mrs. PAINE. Two, I am certain.

Mr. JENNER. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same condition now as when you wrapped it initially?

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar.

Senator COOPER. What was the answer?

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at anytime?

Mrs. PAINE. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You think he might have but you don't know.

Mrs. PAINE. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get done.

Mr. JENNER. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these particular curtain rods?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.

Mr. JENNER. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI on this particular subject?

Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.

Mr. JENNER. But you do not?

Mrs. PAINE. But I do not remember such an occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Unless the members of the Commission have any further questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the afternoon.

Senator COOPER. I want to ask just two questions. Before the assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in it was situated within the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.

Mr. JENNER. You did find the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the size of the package in length and width if you can remember at the time you wrapped it?

Mrs. PAINE. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping paper folded over.

Mr. JENNER. Would you hold your hands there please.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep the dust off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thirty-two and a half inches.

Senator COOPER. What was the width of the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Like so.

Senator COOPER. That you wrapped?

Mrs. PAINE. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they warranted a package of their own.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7-1/2 inches.

Senator COOPER. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their approximate size?

Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half inches to three inches.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half to three inches.

Senator COOPER. All right, go ahead.

Mr. JENNER. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on the sofa you have described?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and indicate----

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?

Mr. JENNER. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the front door.

Mr. JENNER. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room wall.

Mrs. PAINE. Practically the rest of the wall is window.

Mr. JENNER. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The fact is that is a picture window?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is exactly like this. There it is.

Mr. JENNER. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is shown there, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television set?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.

Senator COOPER. I can stay here while the details are filled in.

Mr. JENNER. The police arrived and what occurred.

Mrs. PAINE. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?

Mrs. PAINE. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.

They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.

Mr. JENNER. How many police officers were there?

Mrs. PAINE. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.

Mr. JENNER. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and I will just put it on the floor.

Mrs. PAINE. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.

Mr. JENNER. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised----

Mrs. PAINE. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so.

Mr. JENNER. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?

Mrs. PAINE. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble and may have done----

Mr. McCLOY. Were the strings still on it?