Part 10

Mr. JENNER. How long were you in the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. About a half an hour.

Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that when you entered the garage the light was on?

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have left it on.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to the light having been left on?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No comment at all?

Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired.

Mr. JENNER. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely conscious that he had retired by that time?

Mrs. PAINE. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the room where I was.

Senator COOPER. Did you see him in the bedroom?

Mrs. PAINE. In the bedroom?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be----

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it.

Senator COOPER. You saw him go to it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to retire, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. That is your definite consciousness?

Mrs. PAINE. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of it.

Senator COOPER. I think you have got to tell what you remember that night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the bedroom. You do have that recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you have described.

Mr. JENNER. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering your children's blocks.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You left the garage then, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you go when you left the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. To the kitchen or living room.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living room?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was still up.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward until you retired for the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward.

Mr. JENNER. The answer to my question is no?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that moment forward until you retired?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from that moment forward until you retired that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no.

Mr. JENNER. Or she with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Or she with him.

Mr. JENNER. What time that evening did you retire?

Mrs. PAINE. I would guess around 11 or 11:30.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she retired earlier?

Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked.

Mr. JENNER. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the folding?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped package you testified about yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no.

Mr. JENNER. You first weren't conscious of it?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't stumble over it.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the ironing, what did you discuss?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as to why he was home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion.

Mr. JENNER. You tell us about it.

Mrs. PAINE. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed, concurred with that judgment of it.

Mr. JENNER. What was the attitude that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. He was very warm and friendly.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he normally would have on a Sunday evening before work.

Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a little earlier than he normally would?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was just, still early.

Mr. JENNER. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she reserved because of this quarrel?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and not discuss it.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression of her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Of her conduct.

Senator COOPER. That is just your idea about it, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too.

Mr. JENNER. Do exactly what?

Mrs. PAINE. She didn't ask him why he had come.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question to----

Mrs. PAINE. She did not ask him.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did not.

Mr. McCLOY. She did not.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am sorry.

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him?

Mrs. PAINE. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or 5:30. So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to 15 minutes?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that nature occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of your home that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing.

Mr. JENNER. You say doing. You mean an awareness----

Mrs. PAINE. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee that had left it on.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Rather than Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Because of her habit of turning off lights?

Mrs. PAINE. Not only that. I feel that I--memory of what she had been doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She was involved with the children.

Mr. JENNER. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage at anytime?

Mrs. PAINE. That evening?

Mr. JENNER. That evening.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Did not see him in the garage; no.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of November 21?

Mr. McCLOY. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can before we go.

Mr. JENNER. That is fine. I will have completed this phase.

Senator COOPER. If you can get through the events of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. You retired along about 11:30?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I woke at 7:30.

Mr. JENNER. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night and nothing else awakened you?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that anything woke me; no.

Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this night contained such a getting up or not.

Mr. JENNER. You sleep with your children, do you not?

Mrs. PAINE. We are in the same bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. You awakened when in the morning?

Mrs. PAINE. At 7:30.

Mr. JENNER. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?

Mrs. PAINE. That was all he normally had for breakfast.

Mr. JENNER. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?

Mrs. PAINE. Instant coffee; yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits?

Mrs. PAINE. It was very normal for him to take coffee.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or open?

Mrs. PAINE. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what happened?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Go ahead and narrate.

Mrs. PAINE. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.

I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and Marina thanked me for having left the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.

Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.

I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said "Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the President was dead.

Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. It was announced on the television. I think it was even still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.

Mr. JENNER. Did you communicate that to her?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I recall going out to her and telling her this.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she said anything. I then also----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is it your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything at all that she said.

Mr. JENNER. Would you----

Mr. McCLOY. You told her that you had heard over the television?

Mrs. PAINE. I heard that the shot had been made----

Mr. McCLOY. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't know there was a building on Elm.

Senator COOPER. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give a first-hand----

Senator COOPER. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might have been the man who fired the shot?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none; no.

Mr. JENNER. Why was that, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or hostility.

Mr. McCLOY. But you told this to Marina because of the association of Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes.

Mr. JENNER. She did not comment?

Mrs. PAINE. She did not comment.

Mr. JENNER. Made no comment?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that the President was dead. We were both sitting on the sofa.

Mr. JENNER. Marina had come in from the yard?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. From the hanging of the clothes?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But I do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still sitting on the sofa.

Mr. McCLOY. Just take a little time and compose yourself.

Mrs. PAINE. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see if we had heard, and----

Senator COOPER. Why don't you rest a few minutes?

Mrs. PAINE. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.

Mr. JENNER. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?

Mrs. PAINE. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.

Mr. McCLOY. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.

Mr. McCLOY. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not until the time the officers came to the door.

Mr. McCLOY. Not until the officers came?

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to ask me about that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door----

Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me. Were you asking a question?

Mr. JENNER. I was waiting for you.

Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the shots. Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? Did you hear that comment on the television?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that was earlier.

Mr. McCLOY. That was even earlier?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead.

Senator COOPER. But when you were all sitting there----

Mrs. PAINE. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell her.

Senator COOPER. To tell her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. After that when you went back in and you all were sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot or that any suspects from----

Mrs. PAINE. You mean, someone associated with the building?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No; that was not said.

Senator COOPER. There was nothing else said about that?

Mrs. PAINE. No; just that the shot came from the building.

Mr. McCLOY. Nothing else that you heard?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else about it.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what did she do when you communicated that to her, apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do? Did she come in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did she enter the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging the clothes or whether she went in the house.

Mr. JENNER. She might have gone into the house?

Mrs. PAINE. She might have gone into the house.

Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall.

Senator COOPER. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes?

Mrs. PAINE. She was hanging clothes.

Senator COOPER. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were hanging clothes?

Mrs. PAINE. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained until they were all hung.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not you were hanging clothes alone?

Mrs. PAINE. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you aware that Marina had entered the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina, after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home while you were still out in the yard?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard hanging clothes?

Mrs. PAINE. And I would not have seen her; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard portion in the rear of your home; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is it possible--is there a window in the garage opening on the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank?

Mrs. PAINE. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond----

Mr. JENNER. You are talking about the inside door?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. First I would like to know this----

Mrs. PAINE. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or window or any part of the garage shows from the back----

Mr. JENNER. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. So you can't see into the garage, at least from----

Mrs. PAINE. From the back of my house you can't; no.

Mr. JENNER. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back part, into the yard, are there not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across that window.

Mr. JENNER. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at anytime that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to the time the police came?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been describing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that Marina was in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. No consciousness of that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you enter the garage during this period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection of having done so.

Mr. JENNER. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs. Robert--or is it Roberts?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Came over. Was Marina present----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living room?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you sit down and talk?

Mrs. PAINE. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the news.

Mr. JENNER. She was there just a bit of the time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house.

Mr. JENNER. She did not. She stood in the doorway?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.