Part 1

Transcriber's Note: Stylized "V", "Y", and "Z" symbols are denoted as =V=, =Y=, and =Z=. Italicized words are denoted with _underscores_.

INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

_Volume_ III

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD MR. ALLEN W. DULLES MR. JOHN J. McCLOY

J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_

_Assistant Counsel_

FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS JOSEPH A. BALL DAVID W. BELIN WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. MELVIN ARON EISENBERG BURT W. GRIFFIN LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. WESLEY J. LIEBELER NORMAN REDLICH W. DAVID SLAWSON ARLEN SPECTER SAMUEL A. STERN HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.

_Staff Members_

PHILLIP BARSON EDWARD A. CONROY JOHN HART ELY ALFRED GOLDBERG MURRAY J. LAULICHT ARTHUR MARMOR RICHARD M. MOSK JOHN J. O'BRIEN STUART POLLAK ALFREDDA SCOBEY CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's _Report_.

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume III: Ruth Hyde Paine, an acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, James Jarman, Jr., and Roy Sansom Truly, Texas School Book Depository employees; Marrion L. Baker, a Dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination scene; Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who was in the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination; Luke Mooney and Eugene Boone, Dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the investigative effort in the Texas School Book Depository Building immediately following the assassination; Patrolman M. N. McDonald, who apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas Theatre; Helen Markham, William W. Scoggins, Barbara Jeanette Davis, and Ted Callaway, who were in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Drs. Charles James Carrico and Malcolm Perry, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Robert A. Frazier, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Ronald Simmons, an expert in weapons evaluation with the U.S. Army Weapons Systems Division; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and Joseph D. Nicol, a firearms identification expert with the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the Illinois Department of Public Safety.

Contents

Page Preface v

Testimony of-- Ruth Hyde Paine (resumed) 1 Howard Leslie Brennan 140, 184, 211 Bonnie Ray Williams 161 Harold Norman 186 James Jarman, Jr 198 Roy Sansom Truly 212 Marrion L. Baker 242 Mrs. Robert A. Reid 270 Luke Mooney 281 Eugene Boone 291 M. N. McDonald 295 Helen Markham 305, 340 William W. Scoggins 322 Barbara Jeanette Davis 342 Ted Callaway 351 Charles James Carrico 357 Malcolm Perry 366 Robert A. Frazier 390 Ronald Simmons 441 Cortlandt Cunningham 451 Joseph D. Nicol 496

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Exhibit No.: Page 128 31 425 95 426 2 429 23 430 55 431 55 432 55 433 55 434 55 435 55 436 55 437 55 438 55 439 55 440 55 441 55 442 55 443 55 444 55 445 55 446 55 447 55 448 55 449 75 450 55 451 95 452 55 453 95 454 95 455 95 456 95 459-1 134 460 132 477 147 478 147 479 147 480 157 481 157 482 157 483 183 484 183 485 183 486 183 487 183 488 183 489 183 490 183 491 183 492 183 493 194 494 217 495 217 496 217 497 236 498 236 499 236 500 236 501 236 502 236 503 236 504 236 505 236 506 236 507 280 508 290 509 290 510 290 511 290 512 290 513 290 514 290 515 290 516 294 517 294 518 302 519 302 520 304 521 314 522 314 523 314 524 314 525 317 526 317 527 321 528 324 529 339 530 339 531 339 532 339 534 339 535 341 536 341 537 357 538 357 539 357 540 392 541 394 542 397 543 399 544 399 545 399 546 401 547 401 548 403 549 403 550 404 551 404 552 404 553 404 554 404 555 405 556 408 557 415 558 415 559 419 560 420 561 423 562 424 563 425 564 427 565 427 566 430 567 432 568 432 569 435 570 436 572 437 573 439 574 441 575 441 576 444 577 444 578 444 579 445 580 445 581 445 582 445 583 445 584 445 585 450 586 450 587 453 588 453 589 454 590 454 591 454 592 459 593 462 594 465 595 466 596 467 597 467 598 467 599 467 600 467 601 467 602 474 603 474 604 474 605 474 606 488 607 489 608 499 609 500 610 500 611 501 612 502 613 505 614 506 615 506 616 507 617 507 618 507 619 508 620 508 621 508 622 508 623 508 624 509 625 512

Hearings Before the President's Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy

_Thursday, March 19, 1964--Afternoon Session_

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under affirmation.

Mr. JENNER. I was at the point of describing the driver's license application, but before I do that, Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the document again?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book which you have before you----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were addressing yourself was what?

Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in your address book with what?

Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license.

Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application?

Mrs. PAINE. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in my phone book, most of it being block upper case.

Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents is----

Mrs. PAINE. Is similar.

Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you.

Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very bad misspellings.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."

The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became acquainted with them?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday, October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation" appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes, gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; height, 5 foot 9 inches.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you about to comment?

Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race.

Mr. JENNER. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they are from 1 to 12, as follows:

"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a Texas license?"

Question No. 2. All these are in the negative.

"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license?

"Have you ever held a license in any other State?

"Have you ever been denied a license?

"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, or canceled?

"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?"

All answered in the negative.

"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation?

"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident?

"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular control?

"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or narcotic drugs?

"Do you have any physical or mental defects?"

And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental illness?"

The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals with the record of his examination.

I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure hearsay.

Mr. McCLOY. How did we get in possession of it?

Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI.

The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to qualify it.

Mr. McCLOY. Who can identify it?

Mr. JENNER. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document in evidence. [Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No. 112, vol. I, p. 113.]

Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification questionnaire of the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit 427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand corner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur?

Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September, when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October.

Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose----

Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his----

Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary----

Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you take that document with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it?

Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it to him.

Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of Marina Oswald's second child.

Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina, if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.

Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement?

Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you vacationed in the summer of 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July.

Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where you visited, without telling us what you did.

Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of Massachusetts.

Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. With your children?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next?

Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be?

Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited is all.

Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one night.

Mr. JENNER. She is an old friend of yours?

Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs, until the early part of September.

Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?

Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.

Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.

Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.

Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary?

Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean?

Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in connection with----

Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.

Mr. JENNER. For what company, please?

Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company.

Mr. JENNER. Where is their main office?

Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother during that summer period?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island, and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her?

Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in Baltimore.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?

Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.

Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business?

Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security.

Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government?

Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government.

Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia area, while I was at Paoli.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the sense I would mean friends?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society?

Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond, Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?

Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?

Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my home in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your going along, had you?

Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?

Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk.

Mr. JENNER. About what?

Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house for the birth of the baby.

Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming to be with you for the birth of the child?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining you on a semipermanent basis?

Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September.

Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am anticipating your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. McCLOY. You did?

Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.

Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject, but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.

Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the morning or afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.

Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home?

Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought.

Mr. JENNER. Who was home?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.

Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2 nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came and visited with her sister--excuse me, with her two daughters. This was after I had made a telephone call to her.

Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children?

Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters.

Mr. JENNER. Grown?

Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.

Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did, at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had seen him, which was in May.