Part 74

Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already testified that after an initial warm greeting with Lee, they quarreled, and I was uncomfortable there, and wanted to get back home. I had thought of making contact for Marina with someone in the Russian speaking community in New Orleans, and later when I didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "I will have to go back to Russia after all," I much regretted that I had not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. And anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this appendage to my corrected letter, I telephoned Ruth Kloepfer who is the clerk of the Quaker Meeting in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Would you spell her name, please?

Mrs. PAINE. She is not someone I know. That is spelled K-L-O-E-P-F-E-R, and I asked her if she knew any Russians in New Orleans. She did not. I then wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I asked Mrs. Kloepfer if she knew any Russian-speaking people and described why I was interested in knowing. I must have given her the address of Marina, probably asked that she go and see her. In any case, I have a letter which followed that telephone call, which I wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.

Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me, did you say you telephoned to Mrs. Blanchard or you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote to Mrs. Blanchard, I had originally telephoned to Mrs. Kloepfer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make the telephone call when you were in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. No; this was when I was concerned. I had not heard from Marina for a month. I did not know whether she was in good health or had gone back to the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. So you called Mrs. Kloepfer in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. After having tried to call the Murrets. I had not had their name accurately.

Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to write to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. She is the secretary of the Unitarian Church in New Orleans and I called the Quaker Church in Dallas to find out who was in New Orleans of the Quakers, and then I called the Unitarian Church which my husband belongs to in Dallas to find out who the secretary of the New Orleans Unitarian Church was.

Representative BOGGS. You do not know Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not know her, and I did not know Mrs. Kloepfer either, and appended to this that I am leaving with the Commission is my carbon of a letter to Mrs. Blanchard of the Unitarian Church, which I sent in carbon to Mrs. Kloepfer so each would know what the other was doing in an effort to find a Russian-speaking person who could be a contact for Marina.

(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard; have you supplied the Commission with a carbon copy of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. And it is a two-page document, Mr. Chairman, dated July 18, 1963, now marked as Commission Exhibit 419. That exhibit has now been handed to you, Mrs. Paine. Is that the carbon copy of your letter to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Blanchard, had never heard of her prior to the time you wrote the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. It begins saying, "Mrs. Philip Harper, the secretary of the Dallas Unitarian Church, suggested I write to you when I told her of the following problem."

Mr. JENNER. Is the document in the same condition now as it was when you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 419 the document which has been so identified.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be so admitted.

(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 419 and received in evidence.)

Mrs. PAINE. Will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and then it goes carbon?

Mr. JENNER. Explain that.

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote two carbon paragraphs and then I thought I should write a carbon of this to Mrs. Blanchard and put in a carbon and then in my own copy put in typing.

Mr. JENNER. So that which appears to be a copy is an original and that which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of the letter you actually sent to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. With copy stated here to Mrs. Kloepfer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from Marina on that subject at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. In her succeeding and last letter that I got from her.

Mr. JENNER. Her succeeding letter is dated what?

Mrs. PAINE. It has no date inside. It is postmarked August 11 from New Orleans and sent to me while I was on vacation.

Mr. JENNER. We have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 420 the envelope and attached to 420 is what purports to be a four-page letter in Russian longhand--may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the envelope and the four-page letter?

Mr. McCLOY. If it is properly attached I guess you can.

Mrs. PAINE. There is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't know what it is.

Mr. JENNER. We have marked the four-page letter as Commission Exhibit 421 in order to avoid any difficulty.

Directing your attention to Exhibit 421, do you recognize the handwriting on that exhibit?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. That is a letter to you, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. That appears at pages 13 and 14 of the materials you furnished me?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on the bottom of unmarked page 3.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read that?

Mrs. PAINE. Which is a translation of one word.

Mr. JENNER. What word is that?

Mrs. PAINE. A word means to grow downcast.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch that.

Mrs. PAINE. To grow downcast, to lose courage.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the envelope which is marked Commission Exhibit 420.

Mrs. PAINE. I want to make one other comment. I underlined the word on the second page that I have translated as "winsome."

Mr. JENNER. W-i-n-s-o-m-e?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The other underlinings in her letter are her own.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention to the pink envelope which is Commission Exhibit No. 420, was Exhibit 421 enclosed in Exhibit 420?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. That also is in English, that is the address?

Mrs. PAINE. The address is in English, addressed to me while on vacation.

Mr. JENNER. And you received those documents in due course?

Mrs. PAINE. Which documents?

Mr. JENNER. You received the documents in due course?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not forwarded. It was addressed to me where I was.

Mr. JENNER. But you received them is all I am asking?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 420 and 421, the documents which have been so marked.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be so admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 420 and 421 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. There is one item in Exhibit 421 to which I wish to direct your attention. On the last page about the third paragraph from the bottom appears the second sentence, "Lee doesn't have work now already three weeks." Do you find that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information prior to the receipt of this letter that Lee Oswald no longer was employed in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no such information.

Mr. JENNER. This was your first information?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. I have a five-page document Mr. Liebeler is identifying as Commission Exhibit No. 422.

Mrs. PAINE. This is not what you want. You want my reply, don't you next?

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mrs. PAINE. This is not it. You have my reply but I had had no copy of that.

Mr. JENNER. We will keep that exhibit number. There has been identified as Commission Exhibit 423 an exhibit consisting of four pages, the first three of which are a photograph of a letter, and the last page of which is a photograph of an envelope. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 423, is that a picture of your letter to Marina Oswald in response to her letter of August 11?

Mrs. PAINE. August 11. Yes; it is dated August 24, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that as being a picture copy of letter you had written?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. I did not have this in rough draft. I had no copy of this. You may have a translation but I do not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. I supplied you only on this summary that you have with a brief recollection of what it contained.

Mr. JENNER. I now hand you a document, Commission Exhibit No. 424 consisting of two pages which purports to be a translation of Exhibit 423. Did you review that translation with me last evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Briefly.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection at the moment of what you said last night that the translation is of Exhibit 423?

Mrs. PAINE. It is approximately what I recall writing. I didn't look at the Russian in your pictures.

Mr. JENNER. During the noon recess would you wish to look at that and if you have any exception you wish to take to the translation would you please state it to the Commission?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. May I intervene at this point about Exhibit 422, has that been properly identified?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not yet.

Mr. JENNER. Could we return it to the witness? Exhibit 422 is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. It is in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a draft of a letter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter which I wrote but never sent.

Mr. JENNER. You testified about that letter yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. It is dated April 7.

Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation, your translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have with appropriate paragraph before it saying that it was not sent, that I wrote it not necessarily to send or give to her but simply to have, I think as I testified yesterday, the words at my command ready in case it seemed appropriate to make such an invitation.

Mr. JENNER. And this was prepared on or about April 7, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge on the 7th.

Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed writing it?

Mrs. PAINE. I have added since completing writing, I have added in pencil at the top, "not sent" in English. It is otherwise the same.

Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that further, Mr. Chairman, because the witness did testify about it yesterday other than to offer the document in evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. I simply thought it needed a little elaboration.

Mr. JENNER. You were quite right, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 422 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Where were you in the summer of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. May I interrupt.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Did you want to make any reference to the reference to Lee's driving in Exhibit 424?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, and I do want to go into it.

Mrs. PAINE. I have it underlined.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, would you be good enough to let me have it? This translation which appears as Commission Exhibit 424, the fourth paragraph reads "Lee told me that he learned a little from his Uncle how to drive a car. It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."

Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that.

Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that.

Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the Commission is very interested in the subject matter of Mr. Oswald, of Lee Oswald being able to drive a car and I think it might be well if we covered the whole subject from the beginning to the end.

Would you give the Commission your full, most accurate recollection of this whole subject? Start at the very beginning.

Mrs. PAINE. I think I learned either in March or April that Lee----

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. This would be early in your acquaintance with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Very early. I learned Lee was not able to drive and didn't have a license.

Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was not able to drive?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was related to his looking for work the first time in the middle of April, and I had learned he had looked in the Dallas area for work.

Mr. JENNER. How did you learn it?

Mrs. PAINE. We were talking about it.

Mr. JENNER. You were talking with Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car?

Mrs. PAINE. That he had never learned how.

Mr. JENNER. That he had difficulty in getting around?

Mrs. PAINE. Simply he had never learned how.

Mr. JENNER. He said this to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I felt immediately that his job opportunities, the jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so.

Mr. JENNER. You said that to him?

Mrs. PAINE. And said that to him. Then when we arrived in New Orleans he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his uncle to drive his uncle's car.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Murret?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether there was more than one.

Mr. JENNER. But he volunteered the statement to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it was something that had occurred after he had gotten to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. And he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was getting some experience driving. That his uncle had permitted him to drive the car on the street.

Mr. JENNER. On the street?

Mrs. PAINE. On the street.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion while you were in New Orleans to verify that in any respect whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or have it verified to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. This was confined to a remark that he made to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Then when I learned in Marina's letter of August 11 that Lee was out of work, I immediately thought it would be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that paragraph--shall we read it?

Mr. JENNER. Haven't I already read it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. You mean from your letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Did you read that?

Mr. JENNER. The paragraph "Lee told me that he learned a little from his uncle how to drive a car."

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read that "It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."

Just to be certain of this, Mrs. Paine, this was a remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald when you brought Marina from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans, and----

Mrs. PAINE. The second week in May.

Mr. JENNER. The second week in May of 1963. And then, according to the remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald that his uncle had permitted him to drive his uncle's car on the street in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he was proud of this.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ask at that time or any time while you were in New Orleans in the spring to drive your car?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at all during--did you have the feeling that he would like to drive the car?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it.

Mr. JENNER. Did he demonstrate to you that he could drive?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it.

Mr. JENNER. You have given us all that occurred in New Orleans by way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald driving an automobile or his ability to drive?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. So when next----

Senator COOPER. May I ask this one question?

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Senator COOPER. Did Lee Oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to drive his car?

Mrs. PAINE. Senator Cooper, he did not. He just said his uncle. He did not identify his uncle by name.

Senator COOPER. Do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying with. He had been staying at his home.

Mr. JENNER. You had met the uncle at this time?

Mrs. PAINE. Just met him.

Mr. JENNER. So it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just before he obtained the apartment at Magazine?

Mr. McCLOY. What is the uncle's name?

Mr. JENNER. Dutz Murret. This was the relative who had the nice home that Marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is where she was going to live, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. You want all other references to driving?

Mr. JENNER. Confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles, when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next recall it?

Mrs. PAINE. It came up next after he returned to the Dallas area in October.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. After he returned on the 4th, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. The 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. That was the first I know.

Mr. JENNER. We will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you stick with the automobile incidents.

Mrs. PAINE. He was looking for work.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. In the Dallas area and again, of course, I felt that he could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do about it?

Mrs. PAINE. I recalled that I had a copy of the regulations for driving, what you need to know to pass the written test.

Mr. JENNER. In what State?

Mrs. PAINE. In the State of Texas, and I gave him that booklet.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in Texas so it would assist him in connection with his job hunting.

Mrs. PAINE. Probably. We certainly had conversation about it.

Mr. JENNER. Give us the subject of the conversation in terms of recommendations by you, or what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I again recommended, as I had in the spring, that he learn to drive.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He was interested in learning to drive.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I would like to offer to the Commission something we didn't get to last night.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter I wrote to my mother, which she just showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference to the date I first gave him a lesson in driving.

Mr. JENNER. That would be helpful to us. May I have the letter, please?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now only a portion of it is applicable.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't we give it a number?

Mrs. PAINE. Another portion is applicable in another connection, which I would like especially to bring up.

Mr. JENNER. Having that in mind, we will give that document for identification at the moment only, the number Commission Exhibit No. 425.

I won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will be using it to refresh her recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. I will read what applies here.

Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No. 425.

Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter dated October 14, in my hand, from me to my mother.

Mr. DULLES. Would you give your mother's name?

Mrs. PAINE. Her name is Mrs. Carol Hyde.

Representative BOGGS. Where does she live?

Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. It was likely written to Oberlin, where she was a student at that time.

"If Lee can just find work that will help so much. Meantime I started giving him driving lessons last Sunday (yesterday). If he can drive this will open up more job possibilities and more locations."

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I want to comment too on the nature of this lesson.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission will be interested in that but you go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. Now?

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. I knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. I wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had such. But on Sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center was empty, and I am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took place.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best present recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now I recall this also, and it is significant. I offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to practice. He, however, started the car.

Mr. JENNER. He got in and started the car?

Mrs. PAINE. He got in and started the car so that I know he was able to do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot.

Mr. JENNER. He wanted to?

Mrs. PAINE. He wanted to. I said, "My father is an insurance man and he would never forgive me."

Mr. JENNER. Your father?

Mrs. PAINE. My father. And insisted that he get a learner's permit before he would drive on the street.

Mr. JENNER. At that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in your presence, as though he himself thought----

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. He would be capable of driving an automobile from your home to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. That was your full impression, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I should add that, as I am recalling, he did drive a portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the parking lot. I was embarrassed to just tell him "No, don't." But I did, in, effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the street in my car, when we got there I said, "Now, I am going to drive back." I didn't want him to.

Mr. JENNER. From your home to the parking lot?

Mrs. PAINE. The first time before we had any lesson at all. And at that time I made it clear I didn't want him to drive in the street. Also, it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in driving. We practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop.

Mr. JENNER. Was this on the parking lot?

Mrs. PAINE. This was all on a parking lot.

Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that all the way to the parking lot? So he drove all the way to the parking lot?

Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps a little longer. But a short distance, whatever it was, to the parking lot, yes. Rather than stopping in midstreet and changing drivers. Going to turn a right angle----

Mr. DULLES. How well did he do on that?

Mr. McCLOY. That is what she is telling.

Mrs. PAINE. No; that is a separate answer.

Mr. JENNER. She is talking about the parking lot.

Mrs. PAINE. I was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at all happy about his doing it. I would say he did modestly well; but no means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a corner.

Mr. JENNER. Was there much traffic?

Mrs. PAINE. No. But then too, I noticed when we got to the parking lot when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. He was not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the wheels, actual wheels of the power----

Mr. JENNER. Was it power----

Mrs. PAINE. It was not power steering. But it has no clutch so that makes it a lot easier to drive.

Mr. JENNER. It is an automatic transmission?

Mrs. PAINE. It is an automatic transmission.