Part 72

Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us without any length--you did not. This was a tourist visit of the French Quarter, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With the children?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that tourist visit about visiting Bourbon Street at night rather than in the daytime?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that there was anything said.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about Lee Oswald visiting or frequenting night clubs?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Either in Dallas, or in New Orleans or in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. None; at any time.

Mr. JENNER. Did any one of you tour Bourbon Street at night during that spring visit?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Any discussion of the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a subsequent occasion when you did visit Bourbon Street at night?

Mrs. PAINE. In September, when I visited again in New Orleans. Shall I tell that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please, because there is a measure of contrast to that I would like to bring out.

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I and our three small children went down in the early evening and walked along the street.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us how that came about, whether Lee Oswald accompanied you?

Mrs. PAINE. He did not accompany us. He was asked if he wanted to go, and he said he did not. Marina was interested in my seeing Bourbon Street at night simply as a tourist attraction.

Mr. JENNER. And you two girls took your children?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she take June?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You two girls walked down Bourbon Street?

Mrs. PAINE. And one of us very pregnant.

Mr. JENNER. And observed everything from the outside. You didn't go inside any night clubs?

Mrs. PAINE. No. In fact, when I realized we weren't permitted, we went on.

Mr. JENNER. You had small children?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with Mr. Oswald at that time or with Marina which led you to form a judgment as to whether he was a man who might, or would, or had frequented night clubs?

Mrs. PAINE. I judged he was not such a person.

Mr. JENNER. In all your experiences with the Oswalds from February, sometime in February 1963, even to the present date, had any mention been made of Lee Oswald frequenting night clubs?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Or of Marina at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. No mention of her.

Mr. DULLES. Did you get the impression when you made this trip that Marina had previously made the trip herself, that she seemed to know the surroundings?

Mrs. PAINE. This occurs in the next paragraph of the letter she wrote in May, so I knew she had been herself.

Mr. DULLES. She had been there before?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. From the letter I judge with Lee accompanying her.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you will pardon me. Mr. Reporter, will you read the question?

(Question read.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you answer just that question?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. She did answer it.

Mr. JENNER. I didn't think she did.

Mr. DULLES. I think she said "yes."

Mr. JENNER. Now the letter of May 25th to you does make reference to visits to the French Quarter, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Gentlemen of the Commission, that portion of the letter reads as follows:

"Now a bit about the impressions I have received this week. Last Saturday we went to Aunt Lillian's"--Aunt Lillian, Mrs. Paine, is Lee Oswald's aunt?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Murret.

Mr. JENNER. "And leaving June with her we are at the lake. Lee wanted to catch crabs but caught nothing. I have a very high opinion of his relatives."

By the way, what was your opinion of his relatives?

Mrs. PAINE. I met them only once. I thought them to be very nice.

Mr. JENNER. "Straightforward and kind people. To me they are very attentive. I like them. We have been to the French Quarter in the evening. It is a shame you didn't manage to get there in the evening. For me it was especially interesting as it was the first time in my life I had seen such. There were many night clubs there. Through the open doors were visible barrel covered dancing girls (so as not to say entirely unclothed). Most of them had really very pretty, rare figures and if one doesn't think about too many things then one can like them very much. There were a great many tourists there. For the most part very rich. We have been to the near park again."

That is all of that paragraph dealing with the nightclubs. Now, did you ever know a man or person by the name of Jack Rubinstein or Jack Ruby?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 24, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of any such individual?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Had you frequented a nightclub in Irving or in Dallas prior to November 24, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time. In either town.

Mr. JENNER. You and your husband Michael were not in the habit of visiting, frequenting nightclubs?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It is a fact, is it not, Mrs. Paine that neither you nor Mr. Paine attended nightclubs at all?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is this true prior to your moving to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything that occurred during all these months of your acquaintance with the Oswalds that did or might have led you to any opinion as to Lee's frequenting of nightclubs or his acquaintance with nightclubs or his being intimate with nightclub people?

Mrs. PAINE. During the entire time, is that your question?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Let us end the day for you for this purpose at November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. He was, I would say, actively disinterested in going down to Bourbon Street in the last weekend in September.

Mr. JENNER. But even prior to that time?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the 21st.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred by way of a remark at all that made an impression on you in the area of his being acquainted possibly with any nightclub people, any entertainers?

Mrs. PAINE. There had been no hint of any sort that he was acquainted with nightclub people?

Mr. McCLOY. Whether in Dallas, New Orleans or Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Of course, I had not talked to him a great deal up to the New Orleans trip. Then after that time there was also no hint or mention of any nightclub people. After that time in New Orleans he did refuse table wine at my home, so I got the impression of him as a person who didn't like to drink.

Mr. JENNER. During all your acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ever see him take a drink of spirits, intoxicating spirits?

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible he had beer at the initial party on the 22d of February, that is as far as I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of him as a man of temperance?

Mrs. PAINE. He teased Marina about liking wine as if it displeased him mildly.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You are talking in terms of conclusions which is all right with me if you will give me the specifics also. Could you give us an example or an occasion of what you have in mind?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, at the same occasion when he refused the wine, she had some.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say something that led you to say he was teasing her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what that was?

Mrs. PAINE. Indicating a mild disapproval.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission your impression of Marina Oswald as a temperate person?

Mrs. PAINE. She did not like liquors.

Mr. JENNER. What we would call hard liquor?

Mrs. PAINE. Strong spirits.

Mr. JENNER. Strong spirits.

Mrs. PAINE. But she did drink beer at my home, and did occasionally have wine.

Mr. JENNER. She occasionally had a bit of wine and she occasionally had some beer?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of, as far as your personal knowledge is concerned, her indulgence in intoxicating spirits?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Does that likewise describe your indulgence or do you----

Mrs. PAINE. I would also drink a cocktail on occasion.

Mr. JENNER. But very limited and just an occasional drink?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of your husband, Michael?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever drink to excess?

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not that I ever heard about or saw.

Mr. JENNER. Not that you ever heard about or that you saw?

Mrs. PAINE. Or saw.

Mr. JENNER. From your testimony that is certainly true with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly true of him also.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned?

Mrs. PAINE. As far as I am concerned.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you testified yesterday that Marina would assist you in your becoming more proficient in the Russian language by returning letters that you had written her, upon which she would place her comments of instruction or criticism or suggestion?

Mrs. PAINE. Before she left for New Orleans in May, she offered to correct and send back any letters I wrote to her. In the correspondence which included some four letters with her altogether, there was only one of mine that was actually corrected and sent back and you have that.

Mr. JENNER. I have marked a three-page document as Commission Exhibit 409, and the envelope as Commission Exhibit 409A, the envelope being postmarked at New Orleans on June 6, 1963, and being addressed to Mrs. Ruth Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to make a separate designation for my return letter? You are looking at the letter which accompanied her letter.

Mr. JENNER. That document I will mark as Commission Exhibit----may I have permission, Mr. Chairman, to mark this document in my own hand because the sticker, I am afraid, will obliterate some of the letter.

Mr. McCLOY. You may.

Mr. JENNER. I will mark this as 409B.

Now, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to identify 409, 409A, and 409B, the sequence in which they passed back and forth between you and Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. It includes, No. 409 is my letter to her dated the 1st of June, which she----

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Is that document, or do you recognize the handwriting on that document?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my hand.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the reverse side of the second page, third page. I see there is something on that in red crayon.

Mrs. PAINE. All the red marks and the little bit in ballpoint pen are made by her.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I was seeking to bring out.

Mrs. PAINE. At the end it includes a note of comments.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the portion of the letter in blue ink in longhand is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. And the portion of the letter in red crayon on the reverse side of the third page is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Is in her handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. On the first page is there any of her handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. On the first page in blue ink, ballpoint pen there is some handwriting which is hers at the top.

Mr. JENNER. Those are notations in between the lines or in the margin?

Mrs. PAINE. Above my writing. Yes; sir.

Mr. JENNER. They are comments of hers on your letter?

Mrs. PAINE. And my spelling.

Mr. JENNER. Of your spelling?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do any of those markings appear other than on the face of the first sheet?

Mrs. PAINE. In blue ink you are asking?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am.

Mrs. PAINE. No. The rest is all in red.

Mr. JENNER. That then was a letter that you had sent to her?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Was it returned to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did some document which you now have before you accompany the letter on its return?

Mrs. PAINE. Her letter dated June 5th.

Mr. JENNER. Which has been marked Commission Exhibit 409B?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that handwriting as having been hers?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Of the two documents you have now identified, 409 and 409B, were they enclosed in an envelope?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were.

Mr. JENNER. Is that envelope before you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 409A?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are all those conditions of documents in the condition which they were in when you received them?

Mrs. PAINE. I have again added in my hand on her letter.

Mr. JENNER. That is 409B?

Mrs. PAINE. Translations of certain of the words.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please, for the purpose of the record, identify what your handwriting is, on the letter 409B.

Mrs. PAINE. It is above her words. Most of it is in English.

Mr. JENNER. That is in your hand?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that, are the documents in the condition they were when you received them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. There is one interesting thing to me, Mrs. Paine, to which I would like to draw the attention of the Commission. And I direct your attention in this respect to Exhibits 404, 404A, 408, 408A, 409, and 409A. Each has an envelope addressed to you, and each is addressed written in English.

Is the handwriting on each of those envelopes Marina Oswald's?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. She was then able to write some English, is that so?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please----

Mrs. PAINE. She learned her own address.

Mr. JENNER. Did her command of the use of the English language, at least from the writing standpoint, extend beyond those examples?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. I knew that she looked at signs and had learned the sound value of the English letters. That she looked at the Thursday supplement to the newspaper for the ads on vegetables and things with pictures on a can or something that showed the English of what it was, to try to determine what this word was and pronounce it.

Mr. JENNER. So she did acquire some command of English with respect to reading newspapers?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not my impression that she could read a newspaper. She could pick out the sound values. It was not until October that I read with her a portion from Time magazine regarding Madam Nhu, whenever that was news, she asked me to read this to her and translate it. I read it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read it in English first?

Mrs. PAINE. I read it in English, giving translation of some of the words.

Mr. JENNER. As you went along?

Mrs. PAINE. As I went along.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. But many of the words, English words, were words she understood, because they were either similar to the Russian or because she had learned them.

I was surprised at how much she understood when I pronounced it and read it to her.

Representative FORD. In English?

Mrs. PAINE. In English. Because she was very hesitant to speak English with me, fearful that her pronunciation would not be correct. She would ask me several times, "How do I pronounce this," although she didn't think she was doing very well with the pronunciation, although she did well.

Mr. JENNER. She was sensitive in this respect, Mrs. Paine, she was hesitant to use the English language in the presence, say, of Americans or even the Russian emigré groups?

Mrs. PAINE. I think most people are sensitive about using a language when the person they are with can understand them in the language they use better. She also talked with my immediate neighbor for a short time, when only she and the neighbor were present. I went to see about a child.

Mr. JENNER. Could your neighbor understand Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. But there was a measure of communication?

Mrs. PAINE. There was some communication, not a great deal. My neighbor told me after she saw Marina on television in January, whatever it was, "that girl has learned a great deal of English." She was amazed at the change.

Representative FORD. The improvement from October to January?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. How would you appraise her general intelligence, her level of intelligence for a girl of that age in the early twenties?

Mrs. PAINE. I think she certainly had above average intelligence.

Representative FORD. What prompted her, if you know, to ask about Madam Nhu?

Mrs. PAINE. She was interested in the family. She was worried about what Madam Nhu would do. Madam Nhu and the children still in her country. She wanted to know were these children going to come out either in Paris or the United States. She was concerned, and her concern for world affairs seemed to go this way, of what is this mother and children going to do.

Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the conflict between the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese?

Mrs. PAINE. No; this didn't interest her, it didn't appear to.

Mr. JENNER. It was the human side rather than the political side?

Mrs. PAINE. Strictly that.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you; that is what I wanted to bring out. I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Exhibits with those numbers, the documents marked Commission Exhibits 409, 409-A, and 409-B.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The documents referred to previously, marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 409, 409-A, and 409-B, were received in evidence.)

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, turning to this series of correspondence which has now been admitted in evidence, have you made an interpretation for the Commission of Exhibit 409-B?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Where does that appear on your summary you furnished to me last evening?

Mrs. PAINE. That begins in the middle of page 6, marked second letter from New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Your interpretation of the letter dealing with the night club visit of the Oswalds, you have interpreted that for the Commission, and that appears on page what of your summary?

Mrs. PAINE. That appears on page 3 marked first letter from New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Were you concerned about Mrs. Oswald, about Marina's condition and her receiving proper medical attention?

Mrs. PAINE. I was very concerned about it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you write her at any time about it?

Mrs. PAINE. I would like to refer you to my letter of June 1st which was returned in the document you just admitted in evidence.

Mr. JENNER. You did write her about it?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote particularly in that letter to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. You wrote both Lee and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. In this letter I addressed each, and a particular portion of that letter is in English.

Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit No. 409?

Mrs. PAINE. That was to Lee, that particular portion.

Mr. JENNER. You incorporated, did you not, in that letter, a direct communication to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I say in Russian a few words to Lee now about hospital and money.

Mr. JENNER. But incorporated in your note in that letter to Lee Oswald you used the English rather than the Russian language, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. I wanted to speak of things I couldn't say in Russian. I didn't have the vocabulary to do it with any ease in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. And further I particularly wanted to tell him I thought it important she get to a doctor and have prenatal care and felt he would be the one who actually got her there. It was his concern that would produce a visit to the doctor.

Mr. JENNER. I see. That explains that portion of the letter which is Commission Exhibit No. 409.

Mrs. PAINE. 409.

Mr. JENNER. I won't go into the details, Mr. Chairman, because these are recommendations of Mrs. Paine for medical care of Marina Oswald.

Mr. McCLOY. Do I understand you are going to read all of these into the record at the noon hour?

Mr. JENNER. At the noon hour I will read all of these into the record rather than do it now. Now you, last night, Mrs Paine, suggested to me you would like to make an explanation of this series of letters, and I direct your attention to page 7 of your notes.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, the commentary on page 7 by me is----

Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from having read it, you would like to make a statement to the Commission and you may proceed to do so.

Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't refresh me enough. I could say this. That when I received 409-B, her letter, I read it through. I glanced at 409, her corrected--my letter which she had corrected, and at the note at the back which began, "You write well" and assumed this to be commentary on my letter; it was not until I sat down nearly a month later to write a proper reply to her, I read this through more carefully and found in the middle of the paragraph discussing my writing a comment by her saying, "Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all."

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record there appears the red crayon to which I earlier drew your attention on the back of page 3.

Would you read that entire notation of hers so that the Commission may now know that to which you are now directing your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. In the back of my letter she writes in red pencil, "You write well, when will I write that way in English. I think never. Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all. A pity."

Mr. DULLES. What was the last?

Mrs. PAINE. "A pity."

Mr. JENNER. I take it when you first read that notation on the back of the third page of the letter you had not noticed the sentence, "Very likely I will have to go to Russia after all. A pity."

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed with your comment?

Mrs. PAINE. This was early July when I read this letter more carefully and I was shocked that I hadn't noticed this. That my poor Russian made a scanning of the letter not adequate to picking that up, and I wrote her immediately apologizing for my bad understanding, and I don't have that letter, but I have three which followed it, and----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Do you have a draft, have you produced for the Commission your immediate preceding draft of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no rough draft of my first letter explaining my shock and my worry at this statement of hers.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. But I have rough drafts of three letters I wrote subsequently.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen at any time a copy or the original of the letter that you wrote, a draft of which you do not have?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I haven't.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission your present recollection of the substance and content of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Much what I have said. That I apologized that my poor Russian didn't see this immediately and I inquired after her what she was doing, and asked to hear from her.

Mr. JENNER. You say, that sentence when you finally did read it rather shocked you. Would you rather--would you elaborate on that statement to the Commission? Why did that shock you?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed more final than anything else that had preceded. She had told me in March that he had asked her to go back, that she had written to the embassy but she didn't reply to the embassy when the embassy inquired why. It looked as though she was able to just say no by not doing anything about it. But this, on the other hand, looked as if she was resigned to the necessity to go back.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware at this time, Mrs. Paine, that Lee had applied to the State Department for a passport and had obtained one?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first become aware of that, if you ever did?

Mrs. PAINE. It was considerably after the assassination, and I read it in a paper. I still don't remember what time or day it was.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you write Marina on or about the 11th of July?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a rough draft of that date.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document of two pages which has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 410.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification.)

Would you please tell us what that document is?