Part 71

Mr. JENNER. Was the dwelling in which the Oswalds were residing, 4907 Magazine Street, a single level or a double level house?

Mrs. PAINE. It was all on the ground floor.

Mr. JENNER. It was a one-story house, one story high?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a segment of a house that probably had two stories to it. I don't recall. But the segment they had was all on one level.

Mr. JENNER. And that was the ground level?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit No. 403, and Mr. Dulles, would you favor me by handing her the exhibit, and with particular reference to the screen porch, the screen porch likewise opened up on Magazine Street, did it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was set back a short space from the street, but the door opened up toward Magazine.

Mr. JENNER. The screened portion, that is, that faced on Magazine Street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. If anyone were on the screen porch, let us say, dry-sighting a rifle or some other firearm, would he be, would that person be observable from Magazine Street, and from the east?

Mrs. PAINE. I doubt he would have been noticed from Magazine Street. A small boy passing in the driveway could have looked through the screen, up to the----

Mr. JENNER. That is to the east?

Mrs. PAINE. I will mark "screen" on the south and east side so you know it is screened on both sides.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall for certainty but there may have been a kind of shade that could have been put down. It was not when I was there, down, but there may have been some means of----

Mr. JENNER. Lattice shade?

Mrs. PAINE. Putting down a lattice blind.

Mr. JENNER. A blind or something?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, if the blind were down no one could see it. Did you have occasion when you were there, Mrs. Paine, on either of your two trips to be on the screen porch?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And looking out?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was there any impediment to your view?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I could see the street very well.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion there on either of those occasions to be out in the courtyard or on the street to be looking into the porch area.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Could you see the persons, from the courtyard, could you see persons behind the screen?

Mrs. PAINE. From the courtyard you could see persons behind the screen.

Mr. JENNER. Do I take it then by your emphasis on courtyard, do you mean by that if you were on Magazine Street itself, that is the sidewalk in front of the home it would be difficult to see in?

Mrs. PAINE. Looking directly in you would notice someone but just passing by you would not have been apt to see them.

Mr. JENNER. But if you looked directly you could see in on the porch?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday a series of letters and correspondence and you spent some time with me last night and we went over all that, do you recall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have your summary we worked with last night at hand to assist you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you mind taking that out, please?

You mentioned yesterday in your testimony a note that you had sent to Marina Oswald shortly after your initial acquaintance with her in February of 1963. Did you receive a response to that note?

Mrs. PAINE. I did; and I have that response.

Mr. JENNER. I have here a document which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 404, including its envelope as 404A.

Is that the document or note you received from Mrs. Oswald and the envelope?

(The document and envelope referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404A, respectively, for identification.)

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Did that reach you in the ordinary course of its posting by mail?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I am now.

Mr. JENNER. Is that--do you identify the handwriting in that document 404?

Mrs. PAINE. That is her handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. That is hers.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And that is her response to your note?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 404 the document now so marked.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The letter and envelope referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404-A, were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, that is in what language?

Mrs. PAINE. That is in Russian. Except for the address on the outside.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Have you made a translation of that note?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. And is it the translation on the notes that you exhibited to me last night which we have marked as No. 1?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, if you would prefer that I read the translation in evidence or may we have it----

Mr. McCLOY. It is a short note?

Mr. JENNER. It is a short note. Others are a little longer, however, and if I have your permission, to save you time, I would read that into the record during the noon recess or something of that character.

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. JENNER. Is that acceptable.

Now, did you thereafter--you wrote Mrs. Oswald at or about that time in response to that note of yours, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Let's see--I don't recall whether I did or not or whether I arrived on the Tuesday that she had suggested.

Mr. JENNER. I have a little difficulty in handling these, Mr. Chairman, because they are in Russian, and I don't immediately have a vision of it.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. I am handing you a document which I have numbered as No. 2.

Would you locate that for me on your summary?

Mrs. PAINE. I have it.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the second page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That note also in Russian but in whose handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. And that is a draft, I take it, of a letter or note that you transmitted to Mrs. Oswald.

Would you identify in your sheaf of notes the point at which you made a translation of that note?

Mrs. PAINE. When did I make a translation of it? I didn't understand your question.

Mr. JENNER. Would you point out in your notes the translation of the document? Is that the center of the page on page 2?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is the document which I will have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 405 in your handwriting?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for identification.)

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Is it in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; being, of course, a rough draft of what I sent and not what I sent.

Mr. JENNER. You do not have the original of that because you sent it to Marina Oswald, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. But it does represent your present best recollection of the note as you transmitted it to her?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. This note is without a date. Shall I give my recollection of when I think it was written?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please.

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was written in March and referred to--it closes, "Until the 20th." I believe that referred to Wednesday, March 20, which is what appears here with the name Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Which is what you testified to yesterday, and when you say "appears here" you meant Exhibit 401?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence the original document which has now been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 405.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. I will read the translation in the record during the noon recess. You shortly transmitted another letter of your own to Mrs. Oswald, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I have here a document which I have marked Commission Exhibit No. 406. Is this a draft of the letter in your handwriting?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for identification.)

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And did you shortly after the completion of that draft retranscribe it and transmit the letter to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Is the draft of that document in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where is that document transcribed on your notes?

Mrs. PAINE. That is at the top of page 2.

Mr. JENNER. That is what we call No. 3, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. And dated March 26.

Mr. JENNER. This, Mr. Chairman, is her note to which she testified yesterday was an invitation to the Oswalds to dinner at her home on April 2.

Mrs. PAINE. It appears--the following invitation is a full explanation of it. I believe I had made the explanation in person. This letter was to say that Michael would come and pick them up.

Mr. JENNER. This was confirmation of your original invitation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this was that Michael could pick them up.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document marked Commission Exhibit No. 406.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive from Marina herself a note with respect to your invitation to have her and her husband join you?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a note which I take to be a reply to that invitation, saying that that date, Tuesday, would be fine.

Mr. JENNER. And I hand you Commission Document No. 407.

Is that the note you received from Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 407 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Have you made--is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no envelope anymore. I don't know what happened to it.

Mr. JENNER. Is the note itself in the same condition as it was at the time you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I have written on it in my hand to help me understand the meaning of it, some pen notations, translation of the Russian words.

Mr. JENNER. I am interested in that, Mrs. Paine.

Did you also--are there some additions in your handwriting on the first page of the note?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, marked one, two, three, four and clearly taken from a dictionary.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that?

Mrs. PAINE. To explain to myself the meaning of these particular words. I had to look them up.

Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement, Mrs. Paine, that your command of the Russian language was not facile enough for you to read the total letter freehand, as soon as you received it, but you wrote on the letter definitions of words and of phrases to assist you in interpreting it?

Mrs. PAINE. That is a fair statement.

Mr. JENNER. Were all the notations you have now identified placed by you on that letter shortly after you received it, or in the course of your effort to interpret it?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, save for those additions of yours, is the document in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is it otherwise in the same condition as it was when you placed those notes on it?

In other words, there have been no notes of your own placed on the document subsequent to, at, or about the time you received it when you were attempting to interpret it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, you first said, or when I was translating it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I translated it immediately for myself at the time, and then when I made a written translation I made a more careful one so that some of these notes were done a week ago.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I was getting at.

Would you please, for the Commission identify the particular notes that you placed on there at the time you were seeking to interpret it when you first received it, and the notes you placed on there about a week ago, and indicate the pages.

Mrs. PAINE. I can easily answer that.

There is only one that was placed more recently. That is an underline on the inside.

Mr. JENNER. Right-hand inside page?

Mrs. PAINE. Right-hand side.

Mr. JENNER. Is it merely an underlining?

Mrs. PAINE. Underline and a question mark.

Mr. JENNER. And would you interpret that for us, please?

Mrs. PAINE. I couldn't read her handwriting, but later realized the word to be "if."

Mr. JENNER. When you were seeking to interpret it a week ago to translate it, you placed a question mark over that word because you couldn't quite figure it out?

Mrs. PAINE. And then later realized what it was.

Mr. JENNER. As being the word "if"?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that, Mrs. Paine, is the document in the condition it was when you received it and when you initially placed notations on it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation for the Commission of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And that appears in your notes at page what?

Mrs. PAINE. The first page at the bottom.

Mr. JENNER. Which I have marked No. 4, I believe, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Beginning "For Ruth and Michael Paine."

Mr. JENNER. Does your interpretation or translation of the letter represent your impressions of the letter when you read it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that is true, is it, of the other translations which we will introduce through you today? Is that true of all your translations?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure of what you are inquiring.

Mr. JENNER. What I am inquiring about, others--as you related to me last night--other persons with the command of the Russian language.

Mrs. PAINE. I had no help with the translations.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Other persons with their command of the Russian language might read one of Marina's letters and have at least, as to some words, an interpretation different from yours. What I am saying----

Mrs. PAINE. In a minor regard, yes.

Mr. JENNER. It may be?

Mrs. PAINE. But I believe the meaning would have been the same.

Mr. JENNER. But it is important to get your impressions, Mrs. Paine, of Marina's letters to you, despite what interpretations some other people might give to the same letter, and what I am seeking to emphasize is whether your translations are your impressions of those letters?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; but they are good translations.

Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to question that. We seek the impact of these notes upon you.

Mrs. PAINE. I see. This is exactly what I understood them to mean, of course.

Mr. JENNER. That is fine.

Now, you received in May or on or about May, or shortly after May 25, 1963, another note from Marina Oswald, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. This was postmarked May 25.

Mr. JENNER. After you had taken her to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. This was the first letter I received from her from New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. And you have kindly produced the original of that letter for the Commission, have you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I have to have your answer aloud or I can't get it on the record.

The document you have produced is marked Commission Exhibit 408.

Do you recognize the handwriting of that note and of that envelope?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 408 for identification.)

Mrs. PAINE. This is the handwriting of Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Both documents?

Mrs. PAINE. On both.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive--that is a letter, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Is it on or about, did you receive it on or about the date it is postmarked?

Mrs. PAINE. Shortly after, I would guess.

Mr. JENNER. I can see some handwriting written horizontally on the back of the envelope, is that handwriting yours or Marina's?

Mrs. PAINE. That is mine.

Mr. JENNER. When did you place that handwriting on the reverse side?

Mrs. PAINE. When I first read the letter and sought to understand it.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

And those notations are in Russian or in English?

Mrs. PAINE. A word is given in Russian followed by a translation in English.

Mr. JENNER. As in the case of one of the earlier exhibits, did you place those notations on the reverse side of the envelope at the time you received the letter in the course of your attempting to interpret the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And those notations were in the course of your doing that. Except for the notations on the reverse side of the envelope, is the letter and is the envelope, each in the same condition now as when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have made a few underlinings.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify any additions you placed on the original document, indicating the page, front or reverse side?

Mrs. PAINE. I have marked "bind"----

Mr. JENNER. Is that b-i-n-d?

Mrs. PAINE. Over one word.

Mr. JENNER. Have you written the word "bind"? Is that what you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. B-i-n-d.

Mr. JENNER. And that is an interpretation, I take it of a word written in Russian underneath it.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that word then to you in English was "bind", b-i-n-d.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. I have written the word "thaw" and crossed it out; that was wrong.

Mr. JENNER. Meaning what, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I had the wrong translation for that word. I realized it later.

Mr. JENNER. What was the word rather than----

Mrs. PAINE. The meaning was "insists"; the rest of the markings by me are underlinings.

Mr. JENNER. I will cover those by asking you this. Were there any underlinings on the letter placed there by Marina Oswald at the time you received the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Only one, under this word here.

Mr. JENNER. That is on the reverse side of the second page of the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. It is on the last page. The second page; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is the reverse side of the second sheet of paper?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And it looks to help from her as though it is an arrow, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. There is an underline and then from the underlined word is an arrow.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408 the documents now so marked and identified by the witness.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408, were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you retain that for a moment, please?

Mr. DULLES. May I ask, is the envelope 408A attached?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and in the ease of the earlier exhibit the envelope----

Mrs. PAINE. It is only the second envelope we have had.

Mr. JENNER. The envelope accompanying Exhibit 404 was marked 404A, and the envelope now accompanying 408 is marked 408A.

Mr. McCLOY. Is it so marked now?

Mr. DULLES. Do you wish me to mark it?

(The enevelope was marked Commission Exhibit 408A for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission, Mrs. Paine, with your translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have.

Mr. JENNER. And your interpretation and the effect or the impression that you had of that letter when you received it and as you read it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to the first page, I would like to direct attention----

Mr. DULLES. Do you wish this back?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I will look at the translation.

Mr. JENNER. She has supplied me with an interpretation. In the first paragraph it reads and I quote, and you follow me, please. I will read the whole paragraph:

"Here it is already a week since I received your letter. I can't produce any excuses as there are no valid reasons. I am ashamed to confess that I am a person of moods and my mood currently is such that I don't feel much like anything. As soon as you left all love stopped and I am very hurt that Lee's attitude toward me is such that I feel each minute that I bind him. He insists that I leave America which I don't want to do at all. I like America very much and I think that even without Lee I would not be lost here. What do you think?"

Had you had any discussion with Marina when you were in New Orleans on the subject matters which I have just read to you from the first paragraph of her letter, Commission Exhibit No. 408?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. What impact did this have on you, Mrs. Paine, when you received this letter and read that first paragraph?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a repetition, or similar to something she had told me late in March, which I have already put on the record yesterday, saying basically that he wanted her to go back, wanted to send her back to the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. And to send her back alone, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression I carried.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any occassion, during all your acquaintance with the Oswalds, when there was any suggestion or implication that if she returned to Russia, at his request, that he would accompany her?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such suggestion.

Mr. JENNER. Was it always that she was to go to Russia alone?

Mrs. PAINE. As she described it, it carried from her the feeling that she was being sent away.

Mr. JENNER. What about the little child, June?

Mrs. PAINE. June with her.

Mr. JENNER. Was to accompany her to Russia. Now, the second paragraph, if I may:

"This is the basic question which doesn't leave me day or night. And again Lee has said to me that he doesn't love me. So you see we came to mistaken conclusions. It is hard for you and me to live without a return of our love interest gone. How would it all end?"

Had there been discussions between you and Marina Oswald on the subject of whether or not her husband had love for her, and in that area?

Mrs. PAINE. What I particularly recall is what I mentioned yesterday, when he telephoned her and said he had found a job and wanted her to come----

Mr. JENNER. This was just before going to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Just before going to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. In the spring?

Mrs. PAINE. Right. She said "Papa loves us," as I have testified. She had wondered to me during the 2 weeks previous whether he did, whether she loved him. But was clearly elated by his call and gradually came to her own conclusions. Really, I had no ground upon which to make a conclusion.

Mr. DULLES. She was speaking in Russian then to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were you impressed that this paragraph, however, was not consistent with her immediate response at the time that telephone call had been made to her?

Mrs. PAINE. It showed me there was not as much change as she had hoped.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with her on this subject when you were in New Orleans, and when you took her or when you were taking her from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you were in New Orleans, Mrs. Paine, did you tour any night clubs?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you or Marina ever evidence any interest in touring Bourbon Street, for example?

Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the spring visit?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am.

Mrs. PAINE. We went to the French Quarter during the day.

Mr. JENNER. Please identify whom you include when you say "we."

Mrs. PAINE. Lee, Marina, I, and three children.

Mr. JENNER. Did all of you, including Lee, go to the French Quarter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; we did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you tour the Bourbon Street areas, Royal Street, and the other areas?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we did not.