Part 70

Mrs. PAINE. And then moved. She did tell me this. She had moved on the weekend to a different home. Then Lee came there, pleaded for her to come back, promised that everything would be different. She went back and she reported--as she reported it to me, things were no different.

Mr. JENNER. Were not different?

Mrs. PAINE. Were not different.

Mr. JENNER. Did you undertake a discussion with her as to what the things were that were disturbing her?

Mrs. PAINE. That offended her that much? No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. That led her to leave her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever witness any altercations?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed I saw them argue a good deal.

Mr. McCLOY. Sharp arguments?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. But no violence of any kind?

Mrs. PAINE. No physical violence.

Mr. McCLOY. Any profanity?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I know Russian profanity. He was very curt and told her to shut up quite a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the presence of others?

Mrs. PAINE. Particularly in New Orleans the first time when we went down, when I took her to New Orleans in May, he was very discourteous to her, and they argued most of that weekend. I was very uncomfortable in that situation, and he would tell her to shut up, tell her, "I said it, and that is all the discussion on the subject."

Representative FORD. What were the kinds of discussions that prompted this?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall that, and I have already had my brain picked trying to, with other people trying to, to recall what was the difficulty. I do recall feeling that the immediate things they were talking about were insufficient reason for that much feeling being passed back and forth, and I wondered if I wasn't adding to the strain in the situation, and did my best to get back to Texas directly. But the--well, I do recall one thing, yes--we arrived with a big load of blackberries that we bought from a vendor along the street.

Representative FORD. On the way down?

Mrs. PAINE. On the way down, on the road, and ate them, and then, he, one morning, started to make blackberry wine, and she bawled him out for it, what a waste of good blackberries, and she said, "What do you think you are doing? Ruining all this." And he proceeded, and argued about it, but thought he should, you know, defend himself. On this occasion she was making the attack in a sense and didn't think he should do it this way, and then, so, under fire and attack, he continued. But then the next day she observed that he had tossed it all out and lost heart after the argument, and decided it wasn't----

Mr. DULLES. He tossed out the wine?

Mrs. PAINE. He tossed it out; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You detected, then, irritability as between them. Is that a fair statement?

Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.

Mr. JENNER. And anger rose to the surface pretty easily?

Mrs. PAINE. Very easily.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? Of course he hadn't seen her then for a couple of weeks.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it--when she came in. Did they embrace?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We arrived at his uncle's in one section of New Orleans, and had a very friendly half hour or so----

Mr. JENNER. Was he there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was there. He introduced her and little June, and played with June, on his shoulders, perhaps. At any rate, he was very glad to see the baby, and was congenial and outgoing. We talked with the relatives for a short time.

Then the uncle drove them to the apartment--I was following with my children in my car--drove to the apartment he had rented, which was in a different section of the city. And Lee showed her, of course, all the virtues of the apartment that he had rented. He was pleased that there was room enough, it was large enough that he could invite me to stay, and the children, to spend the night there. And he pointed out this little courtyard with grass, and fresh strawberries ready to pick, where June could play. And a screened porch entryway. And quite a large living room. And he was pleased with the furniture and how the landlady had said this was early New Orleans style. And Marina was definitely not as pleased as he had hoped. I think he felt--he wanted to please her. This showed in him.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said. What led you to that conclusion?

Mrs. PAINE. She said it is dark, and it is not very clean. She thought the courtyard was nice, a grass spot where June could play, fenced in. But there was very little ventilation. We immediately were aware there were a lot of cockroaches.

Mr. JENNER. Was she aware of this, and did she comment on that?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as anything was said. He was pretty busy explaining. He was doing his best to get rid of them. But they didn't subside. I remember noticing that he was tender and vulnerable at that point, when she arrived.

Mr. JENNER. He was tender?

Mrs. PAINE. Hoping for--particularly vulnerable, hoping for approval from her, which she didn't give. It wasn't a terribly nice apartment. And she had been disappointed, because when we first arrived she thought that the home we were going to was the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. She thought the Murrets' home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. So when we came up to the Murrets' home, she said, "This is lovely, how pleased I am." So that she was in--disappointed by contrast with the apartment that she really had to live in.

Representative FORD. She expressed this?

Mrs. PAINE. She expressed her disappointment; yes; and didn't meet his hopes to be pleased with it.

Mr. DULLES. As compared with their previous place of residence, how was the New Orleans apartment? It was bigger, I gather.

Mrs. PAINE. It was larger. It was darker, less well ventilated. It was on the first floor, the other was upstairs. I would say they were comparable in cost and in attractiveness.

Mr. JENNER. What about vermin?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any vermin at the first place. But then I didn't spend the night there.

Mr. JENNER. So the welcoming was cordial?

Mrs. PAINE. The welcoming was cordial.

Mr. JENNER. They seemed to have a fine relationship at that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But as the weekend progressed, and she saw the new apartment, all the time you were there, you were aware of friction and irritability?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Going back to the 15 days again, was there any discussion during this period, again, on the subject of Mr.--of Lee Oswald wishing Marina to return to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe I made definite, but only verbal, an invitation for her to stay on with me, past the time of the baby's birth, if she wished to.

Mr. JENNER. I take it--I will get into that. But I take it your answer to my question first is yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us what that discussion was.

Mrs. PAINE. Well----

Mr. JENNER. And how it arose.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, we still discussed the possibility of her coming back to have the baby here--although by no means a definite--definitely planned.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I am a little confused. When you say coming back to have the baby here----

Mrs. PAINE. It was assumed she would go to New Orleans when he called, but we talked about the possibility of her coming back to Dallas. I said she was still welcome to if she wants to, if it seems appropriate, to come here to have the baby.

Mr. DULLES. That was to your house, you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; to stay at my house before, or especially right after the baby's birth, where I could look after June while she was in the hospital and later. June didn't take readily to strangers. She did like me and was comfortable with me, so I felt she might want to have someone she knew and got along with.

Mr. JENNER. But in this connection, was there a discussion between you and Marina Oswald subject to her husband wishing her to return to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she again said that he was after her to return.

Mr. JENNER. Well, then, on the whole, your answer to my question would be no.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. As far as I recall, it came up only once in our discussions prior to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Which you have already related?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during the 15-day period on the subject of her acquiring greater facility with the English language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And his attitude toward that?

Mrs. PAINE. His attitude had already been discussed, and I don't believe it was particularly discussed further. But she did indicate that she was going to try to learn some anyway.

Mr. JENNER. Despite that?

Mrs. PAINE. I judged so. I asked if she had a book written in Russian entitled "The Self Teacher in the English Language." She did not. And I ordered it. And I think I gave it to her even then. I am quite certain of that. This turned out to be not much help. At least she was interested in trying to learn English.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the subject of it being disclosed to the Russian emigré group that she was pregnant.

Mrs. PAINE. No; she continued to ask me not to mention that. We did, however, meet someone in the Russian emigré group in Fort Worth after she had the first day put on maternity clothes--and so she was sorry that that meeting had occurred. She judged now people would know.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Did anything else occur in the way of discussions during that 15-day period on the subject of life in Russia, his political philosophy, how they got along, his general disposition, her reaction to America?

Mrs. PAINE. She discussed her reaction to America. She was very impressed with the variety of goods available in the stores. She thought the quality was better here than in Russia. Then there was more of that later in October.

Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, in October. Have we pretty well exhausted this 15-day interim period, then?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there? During this 15-day period, did any individual, male or female, come and visit you at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. You mean particularly to see her? I am sure there are people coming and going at my house. There must have been. For instance, May 1, Mary--this is again Miss Mary referred to previously, a babysitter, "8:15. War and Peace." Mary came and stayed with my children, and Marina and June and I went to see War and Peace. Miss Mary recalls that meeting.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a play or the movie?

Mrs. PAINE. This is the movie, War and Peace, in English. But, of course, she knew the story, so she could enjoy seeing it. "Ed tennis confirm." I went over to play tennis. On the fourth of May, Craig's children--they came here.

Representative FORD. Into your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Craig?

Mrs. PAINE. Craig is this young German woman who didn't want to buy guns for her children either, that I mentioned. And we exchanged children often.

Mr. JENNER. Does she speak Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. No; German only, and English. And, mow the lawn, it says on the third, but that is not me, it is a neighbor who mows the lawn. And May 9 in the morning, "Ilse"--means Mrs. Craig again--kept my children while I went at 8:10 to Saint Marks for an interview. So there was a normal flow. And I told my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, who figures later, that Marina was there over the weekend, that I wouldn't be there, and introduced them, so Marina could go to Mrs. Roberts and make signs or symbols if she had to get a message through to someone.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts is your next door neighbor?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Then your response to Representative Ford's question is that----

Mrs. PAINE. A normal flow to my house.

Mr. JENNER. But there wasn't anybody that came specifically to see her from the Russian emigré group, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Were there any telephone calls to her from anybody of this group, or any other group?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I made the contact for her with my tutor, got her to call. But that is all.

Mr. DULLES. She probably could not operate the telephone.

Mrs. PAINE. She could. That was the first I knew. I wasn't certain. But she knew how to operate the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. I am pleased you raised that, sir. She could dial. Did you have the dial system in effect at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Way out in Irving; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she could dial the number if she wished?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she knew how to do that.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you at any time get any evidence to indicate that she was in touch with any Soviet officials at all, the consul general? Did she ever talk of going to the Soviet Embassy or the Soviet Consulate in regard to her problems?

Mrs. PAINE. No. The only thing ever mentioned was this that I have already mentioned for the record--that she had written to the Soviet Embassy inquiring about papers to go back.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you think she did that on her own initiative?

Mrs. PAINE. No; because he was insisting.

Mr. DULLES. We have a copy of that letter, have we not?

Mr. McCLOY. Did she ever tell you why she didn't want to return to the Soviet Union?

Mrs. PAINE. She said she liked America better.

Mr. McCLOY. And she rather liked the conditions here better than she had experienced them in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. And that you think was her fundamental motivation for staying here?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Wanting to stay here? When you were in contact with her at all did any--when she was staying with you, was there any unidentified characters or people that called to see her?

Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no one at all that called to see her.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any telephone calls received during that period when you answered the phone that someone asked for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Only that from Lee on the night.

Mr. JENNER. Only from Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Only from Lee.

Mr. JENNER. No other calls to her?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And no other callers--that is persons who came to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. McCLOY. What was the name of these--De Mohrenschildts. Did they communicate with her when she was with you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; my impression is they were already out of the country.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any mail received or delivered to your home during this period for her?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. It is possible that Lee wrote once. I think it is more likely she wrote him.

Mr. JENNER. In the household goods and paraphernalia transferred to your house, were there any books, pamphlets, literature?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any.

Mr. JENNER. You did not see any?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever engage in any discussion or dialectics with Lee about the respective merits of the capitalist system or the Soviet system? Did you engage in any debates with him on political philosophy?

Mrs. PAINE. I once listened to such a debate between Lee and my husband, in October.

Mr. DULLES. You kept out of the debate?

Mrs. PAINE. I tried hard. I felt it was not going anywhere, and that he was not a man that could be approached by logic, and that there was no point to arguing with him. I disagreed with him quite strongly, and I didn't see how it would help in any way to say so, or to try to change--certainly it would not have helped to try to change his views. He, for instance, was of the opinion that all churches were an arm of the state, intent upon blinding the people. I thought his thinking was extremely erroneous, and not open to introduction of other facts, anything contradictory to his own view.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he become intemperate in argument?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. McCLOY. But in the course of his discussions with your husband, did he assert adherence to the element of violence as a factor----

Mrs. PAINE. Michael tells me he did. I didn't hear that particular discussion.

Representative FORD. In response to Mr. McCloy, you told of this argument that your husband and Lee Oswald had. You said it was October. This is October 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any more questions? We are going to resume in the morning at 9 o'clock.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be here?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I will be here.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you continue to preside throughout her testimony. I will be here, though.

Mr. DULLES. I have no questions.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you want to close?

Mr. JENNER. I would just as soon adjourn now, if it suits your convenience.

Mr. McCLOY. All right. We will excuse you. Thank you for your cooperation.

(Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Thursday, March 19, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on March 19, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.

Mr. McCLOY. Mrs. Paine, I must remind you that you are still under affirmation. We don't take a new affirmation with each hearing.

Mr. JENNER. We had concluded, if you recall, the 15-day period in May that Mrs. Oswald resided at the home of Mrs. Paine.

Would you please describe for us the items of household furniture, or whatever the articles were, that were packed in your station wagon when you took Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. We packed in a play pen and crib. I recall a stroller, some kitchen utensils, and personal clothing for herself and the baby.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any luggage of any character?

Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a small suitcase but I don't recall it specifically.

Mr. JENNER. You do not?

Mrs. PAINE. I am just guessing.

Mr. JENNER. As I recall you have told us yesterday that when you arrived in New Orleans, you went by the Murrets' home first?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And then from the Murrets' home to the apartment at, what was that address on Magazine Street?

Mrs. PAINE. 4907.

Mr. JENNER. That was 4907 rather than 4905.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there has been a touch of testimony, at least of the possibility that Mr. Oswald may have dry-fired or dry-sighted any rifle in the courtyard or garden space at 4907?

Would you be good enough to draw for us free hand the layout, at least the ground layout of the 4907 premises on Magazine Street in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Now, shall I describe this?

Mr. JENNER. Could I first show the diagram. I have marked the diagram the witness has drawn as Commission Exhibit No. 403.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, might it be helpful and permissible if I had the witness stand to your rear and point to the diagram so that you might follow her testimony?

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mrs. PAINE. This street is Magazine Street; it is a corner house.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, left on your plot is east and west and up and down are north and south?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the way I recall it. This is a corner house and there was room enough----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I have to keep the record. You are referring now to a square on the right-hand margin of your outline.

Mrs. PAINE. Between this house, and the courtyard and house where the Oswalds were staying, there was room enough to drive a car.

Mr. JENNER. Have you marked the courtyard with that word?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have written "courtyard" in the sort of an "L" shaped space that you have indicated on the plot, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. This is a square space cut by a walk.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. This was a low fence.

Mr. JENNER. When you say this, it does not help us on the record; what is this to which you have pointed--you have written something across it?

Mrs. PAINE. Around this courtyard and in front of the house was a low metal picket fence.

Mr. JENNER. That you have so designated?

Mrs. PAINE. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. There was grass within this small courtyard or walk, steps----

Mr. JENNER. Which you have also marked "walk"?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Steps going up.

Mr. JENNER. Which you have likewise so marked?

Mrs. PAINE. To a screened porch.

Mr. JENNER. Likewise so marked?

Mrs. PAINE. And then the doorway from the porch goes into the living room.

Mr. JENNER. And the living room is marked "Living room." Would you use those names and those designations as you testify?

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate the courtyard or square or oblong portion you have marked, rectangular portion, that was open space, was it, it was not roofed?

Mrs. PAINE. It was fully open.

Mr. JENNER. It was fully open, and it faced out on Magazine Street?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And was there open space to the east, that would be toward the building, which you have merely designated as an empty square?

Mrs. PAINE. I will write in here "driveway;" this was open here as a driveway.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is that what you have now marked a building, a dwelling?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a dwelling.

Mr. JENNER. Were there dwellings to the south of Magazine Street and on the opposite side of the street?

Mrs. PAINE. That so far as I recall, that is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. What was to the east in the way of dwellings or buildings?

Mrs. PAINE. The rest of the house; they lived in a portion; entered from the side door of a large house; I assume it was once a one-family dwelling.

Mr. JENNER. Then for our purpose here as far as the courtyard is concerned on the east it was--there was a walk?

Mrs. PAINE. A building.

Mr. JENNER. West, I am sorry. On the west line of the courtyard there was a walk?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. On the north of the courtyard there was the screened porch and to the east, but with intervening driveway there was a dwelling house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then the courtyard was open on Magazine Street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that anybody standing in the courtyard and dry-sighting a rifle would be visible to people who just happened by, or who would be looking out a window on the south side of Magazine Street, or in the home or in the dwelling house to the east of the courtyard?

Mrs. PAINE. He would have been very visible. Would have collected a clutch of small boys.

Mr. JENNER. This was a neighborhood, then, in which there were small children?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a reasonably busy street?

Mrs. PAINE. Very busy street.

Mr. JENNER. What were the days of the week that you were there when you returned, when you brought Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. When we first went down, we arrived on Saturday, I was there Sunday and Monday and left Tuesday morning.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Does your recollection serve so that you can state that the days you were there you observed during the daytime, at least many or a reasonable number of small children and mothers and fathers, in and about the neighborhood?

Mrs. PAINE. A good many small children and adults.

Mr. JENNER. Was that likewise true when you returned in September about which you will testify in a few moments?

Mrs. PAINE. That was certainly true in September.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 403, a plot which Mrs. Paine has just drawn and which is so marked.

Mr. McCLOY. So received.

(The diagram referred to heretofore, marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for identification, was received in evidence.)

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)