Part 69

Mrs. PAINE. Understand I saw those two later in my garage.

Mr. JENNER. I understand, and I will get to that. That is just about 45 inches, and there were two of them?

Mrs. PAINE. There were two of them. Do you want anything about the rest of the luggage? Does that interest you the most?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am interested, and I would like to stick with the duffelbags for a moment. Was there any appearance as to either duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard----

Mrs. PAINE. I assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded.

Mr. JENNER. I don't wish to be persistent, but was there anything that you saw about the duffelbags that lead you at that time to even think for an instant that there was anything long, slim and hard like a pole?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or a gun, a rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No? Nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I did not move these bags.

Mr. JENNER. To the extent you saw them is all I am inquiring about. You did not touch them, you did not lift them, but you saw them.

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. There appeared--the entire circumference of these bags which you could see was smooth?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, smooth, bumpy, but irregular.

Mr. JENNER. But no stick, no hard surface. Now, what about the diameter of these bags, these duffelbags, what would you say it was?

Mrs. PAINE. About like this, 15, 18, 20 inches across.

Mr. JENNER. Eighteen, twenty inches across?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably more than that.

Mr. JENNER. This is 15 inches.

Mrs. PAINE. About like this; a little more than 15, probably.

Mr. JENNER. About 18 inches. Now, how many pieces of luggage in addition to the two duffelbags?

Mrs. PAINE. Quite a few. There were probably three suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Three suitcases?

Mrs. PAINE. Or more. A small radio bought in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. I want to stick with the luggage.

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Three suitcases?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so, two or three, and a large softsided suitcase, I don't know what to call it. It zips around the side.

Mr. JENNER. Zipper case?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, made of canvas.

Mr. JENNER. We would like to have you describe that zipper case.

Mrs. PAINE. It is green----

Mr. JENNER. I am interrupting you, I am sorry. Were there any other pieces of luggage, first?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. So there were two or three or possibly four, is that true, suitcases?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And there was a zipper case?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Describe this zipper case to us first.

Mrs. PAINE. It stood about so high [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. So high is 15 inches, about 30 inches long?

Mrs. PAINE. Not quite, about that long [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. It was a generous sized zipper case?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. With generally green canvas and leather, dark-colored leather.

Mr. JENNER. Black or brown--do you remember the color?

Mrs. PAINE. Dark brown, I guess, or black, certainly very dark.

Mr. JENNER. It was a generous sized one, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did it appear to be well packed?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe each of the three suitcases now, with particular reference to the staff being interested in whether they were rectangular, whether they were hard boarded types of things, or whether they were canvas or soft?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember how many there were. I recall they had a hard composition kind of suitcase such as you don't buy here, and I judge they were bought in the Soviet Union. I think there may have been two of those.

Mr. JENNER. Was any one of them rectangular in shape?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was rectangular.

Mr. JENNER. The one you specifically have in mind, he did have a rectangular one?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what color was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Dark, blackish green, or dark brown, something of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else you can think about it in the way of description?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it had--it was reinforced, corners, with rivets, or bolts, of something to hold it, hold the corners on it.

Mr. DULLES. How long was this rectangular suitcase?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. In fact, I can't recall whether it was one or two, but something like that, normal suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I have your permission to approach the witness?

Mr. McCLOY. And take the measurements?

Mrs. PAINE. And take the measurements.

Mr. McCLOY. The witness may be approached.

Mrs. PAINE. That or larger, I would say.

Mr. JENNER. You are now describing the length of the rectangular suitcase, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that would be 21-1/2 inches?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I am brief in my recollection, a normal rectangular shape here.

Mr. JENNER. Width, that is the side, you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the whole thing. That is looking at the top. How high it is.

Mr. JENNER. No; wide.

Mrs. PAINE. I am filling it out. This would be the width then from here to here, possibly more.

Mr. JENNER. Fourteen inches?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I am recalling one or two at the same time. I have to be under oath, and giving you details on things I don't recall that well.

Mr. JENNER. All we are seeking is your best recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. All right, that is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Twenty-one and a half times fourteen, and how high was it?

Mrs. PAINE. About so, 6, about 6.

Mr. JENNER. I said high. Was this lying flat on its side when you saw it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, all these things again I saw in the fall, so it is a mixed recollection.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to get as to what you saw in the fall, but it is important to us as to what you saw on this occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly recall the duffels because they are unusual, and I recall this bag being, I judge Russian make rather than American, it was a large zipper bag.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, you do recall that zipper bag on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And there was at least one, if not more than one, rectangular----

Mrs. PAINE. I can't be certain of the zipper bag.

Mr. JENNER. Hard-sided suitcase?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; hard-sided suitcase. I can't be certain, absolutely certain, of the zipper bag. I recall seeing so much of it since, tripped over it numerous times, that it may be just that I recalled it. I didn't move this luggage at all.

Mr. JENNER. I am not suggesting that you did.

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry I can't remember it better.

Mr. JENNER. Were all of these suitcases about the same size and shape?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have described the rectangular one. Would you now describe the second, the second in order of your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was at least another rectangular one.

Mr. JENNER. Hard-sided?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was it larger or smaller than the one you have described?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall with certainty.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a third?

Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a third. I certainly recall this radio that was unusual. The others I don't.

Mr. JENNER. It is possible you might be confused between the radio case and a suitcase.

Mrs. PAINE. No, no; no possibility of that.

Mr. JENNER. All right. He checked all these articles, checked them into the bus station?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you and Lee and Marina return to their home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you remain there?

Mrs. PAINE. No. He then helped pack up the remaining things, the playpen, the bed, and then we left there midafternoon, perhaps 4, all of this must have taken quite a long time, because----

Mr. JENNER. They removed everything from their home?

Mrs. PAINE. They removed everything that remained to them.

Mr. JENNER. Put it in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Put it in the station wagon and went with Lee and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Your station wagon was big enough to hold everything in the house, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, they had no furniture, but it held all the rest of their things; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do the packing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What were you doing in the meantime?

Mrs. PAINE. Packing was haphazard, this packing was haphazard; put the dishes in a box and carried it out to the car.

Mr. JENNER. It was in the open so you could see what went into your car?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so. I certainly then repacked it to go to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to stick with this occasion, please.

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't see any kind of weapon?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I saw nothing of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; immediately.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see that being done, were you present?

Mrs. PAINE. I helped do it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any weapon on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Whether a rifle, pistol or----

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment, Mrs. Paine, had there been any discussion with Marina or with Lee Harvey Oswald in connection with his life in Russia with the use of a firearm or his right to use one in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anything of this sort. Michael told me later he mentioned it to Michael.

Mr. McCLOY. State that, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Michael told me later that Lee had complained in Michael's hearing that they did not permit a private individual to have a gun, but I didn't hear that when it was said. So there was no discussion at any time that mentioned guns, nothing brought up by Marina or Lee.

Mr. JENNER. I will broaden my question. Up to--now up to, and not including, up to November 22, 1963, had there ever been any discussion between you and Lee Harvey Oswald or between you and Marina or any discussion in the presence of either of them by anybody, including yourself, about the use of a firearm by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Marina told me that he had been hunting in the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. Now, please, to the best of your recollection when did that occur?

Mrs. PAINE. When did she tell me?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. It might have been as long ago as May, when she was first staying at my house. She quoted a proverb to the effect that you go hunting in the Soviet Union and you catch a bottle of vodka, so I judge it was a social occasion more than shooting being the prime object.

Mr. JENNER. That was in this period when she was living with you in the spring of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. It could have been there. It might have been in October, but I would guess it was in May.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would elaborate on that.

Mrs. PAINE. I wish I wouldn't guess, I know.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say that Lee Harvey Oswald had some kind of a firearm in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. That he had gone hunting with a group, in other words, in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion----

Mrs. PAINE. And she quoted this proverb.

Mr. JENNER. Can you remember the circumstance in which she made that utterance?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Anything that provoked it or brought it about?

Mrs. PAINE. I think she was probably recalling something of their life in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. In a discussion between you and Marina as to their life in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any other occasion in which a discussion occurred between you and either of them or in their presence while you were present on the subject of a firearm prior to November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. On one occasion around the middle of November I said to Marina that----

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Harvey Oswald present?

Mrs. PAINE. He was not present.

Mr. JENNER. Just Marina and you?

Mrs. PAINE. Just Marina and I.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I said to her that I did not want to buy toy guns for my children, and that this view of things was shared with a German friend of mine who had been a young girl at the time of the last World War in Germany, and she didn't wish to buy guns for her children to play with, and I said too few people think about this. She said nothing in reply.

Mr. JENNER. She didn't say anything at all in response to that. Does that exhaust your recollection of all discussion of firearms?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. That occurred in your presence?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Up to November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Up to, that is right.

Mr. McCLOY. There was no suggestion of Lee's using a firearm for hunting purposes in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. None; nor that he might have had any gun.

Mr. McCLOY. Nor that he might have had any gun.

Mr. JENNER. After Marina's things and the baby's things had been placed in your home then what occurred in the evening, was this late in the day of the 24th?

Mrs. PAINE. It was close to supper. I am sure we then ate and put our children to bed, possibly talked a short time. I no doubt explained to her quite soon that I was to go away for the weekend. Indeed, this invitation was made quite on the spur of the moment. You don't normally invite someone to come and stay with you when you are about to go away, but I was to go to a folk-dance camp with Michael that weekend, and you see on the calendar "FDC" which stands for folk-dance camp, arrow San Antonio. That is the 26th, 27th and 28th.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed that.

Mrs. PAINE. And I left her in the house with the telephone number of my Russian tutor to call, and I believe they talked, in fact, before I left.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the name of your Russian tutor.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question that we passed by?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. When you unloaded Marina's things and the baby's things, did this subtract one suitcase from this number you have indicated? Was one of the suitcases delegated to her things or were they just loose in the car?

Mrs. PAINE. Insofar as I remember, I believe they were loose.

Mr. DULLES. They were loose. So that the number of suitcases you have indicated were those that were eventually checked and taken by Lee Harvey Oswald to New Orleans.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is the way I remember it. It does not seem reasonable that he would go off without leaving her a suitcase to put her things in, so I would guess there was something for her in the nature, perhaps, of a small bag.

Mr. DULLES. So that one of these bags may have been unloaded at your house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, you started to testify, that there was also a radio that had been presumably purchased in Russia. Did he take that with him?

Mrs. PAINE. He took that.

Mr. McCLOY. He took that with him. He didn't return that to her.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I don't want to speculate, but I thought you had testified in response to my questions that the two or three pieces of luggage, that is, the suitcases, plus the two duffel bags, plus the zipper bag, plus the radio, had been checked into the bus station.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. All of those pieces of luggage were actually checked in, and when you left the bus station none of the pieces of luggage or the radio or the duffel bags had been placed back in your car.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it, but it seems to me unreasonable----

Mr. JENNER. Now, please, I don't want you to rationalize. I want your best recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall. I mean the suitcases that came to my house----

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall having taken one of the pieces of luggage and placed that piece back in your station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no, that is definite. All that went to the bus station.

Mr. JENNER. Remained there.

Mrs. PAINE. Remained there.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. At what stage did they go to the bus station? Did you go from their apartment to your house and then to the bus station or did you go to the bus station first?

Mrs. PAINE. Directly to the bus station.

Mr. DULLES. And then went to your house?

Mrs. PAINE. Directly to the bus station from their apartment, back to their apartment and picked up the rest of the things.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. The baby things and her clothing and then went to my house.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, apart from your rationalization, do you have the recollection that there was any luggage at all in the Oswald home when you got back?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no such recollection.

Mr. JENNER. So that in response to Mr. Dulles' questions when you talked about the possibility of some luggage, you were rationalizing?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You are not drawing on your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I take it your best recollection, in fact, is that there was no luggage remaining at the Oswald home when you got back?

Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing packed when we got back.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall undertaking to pack anything when you got back in order to remove what they had there remaining to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. You mean was there a suitcase into which I could pack anything?

Mr. JENNER. That is it.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have related to us that you went away for the weekend.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With your husband.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have an entry in your diary, and I quote it on the 24th of April, 1963: "Lee and Marina."

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that an entry made after the fact?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I judge that was----

Mr. JENNER. Now, please give me your best recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. That was the plan to meet, knowing Lee was no longer working; it was there for not only a meeting with Marina, but I expected to see them both at the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. So that is confined to the meeting you expected to have with Lee and Marina that morning when you went there and, to your surprise, you found that Mr. Oswald was all packed to go to New Orleans.

Mrs. PAINE. All packed and looking for a cab; yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain in your home on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. She stayed then until May 9--well, excuse me, she stayed until the 10th of May.

Mr. JENNER. You have an entry, do you not, in your diary as to the May 9th or 10th.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Read it.

Mrs. PAINE. It says now going over to the 11th "New Orleans."

Mr. JENNER. And you have written across then "May 10 and May 11," is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What does the "New Orleans" signify, please?

Mrs. PAINE. Lee called on the evening of the 9th to say he had work.

Mr. JENNER. You recall that?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall that definitely. Marina says, "Papa naslubet," "Father loves us," "Daddy loves us, he got work and he wanted us to come." She was very elated.

Mr. JENNER. This is Marina talking to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I could see as she talked on the phone.

Mr. JENNER. You overheard this conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Afterward. She said over and over, "Papa naslubet," "Daddy loves us," "Daddy loves us."

Mr. JENNER. She was elated?

Mrs. PAINE. She was elated and, let's see, we tried to think when we could leave, and first said over the phone that we would leave on the morning of the 11th. But I thought it would be too long to do all this in one day, and we accelerated our preparations and left midday on the 10th which got us to Shreveport.

Mr. JENNER. Before we get into this, and I would like to cover this interim period before any adjournment today; there was a 16-day period now, approximately, maybe we will limit it to 15 days, that Marina stayed with you in your home.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have conversations with her about her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. About their life in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, even going so far as to wonder----

Mr. JENNER. During this 15-day period?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had such conversations.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to us your discussions with Marina with respect to her husband Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE. She said she supposed most couples had at some time wondered about this. She wondered herself whether she loved him truly. She talked some of her few months of dating that she had in Minsk, and of living there.

Mr. JENNER. That is before her marriage to Lee Harvey?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. At some point, and I want to tell you this, whether it is appropriate or whether it happened later in October, I can't be certain, but I think in May she told me that she had written a letter to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she had put insufficient postage on it, and Lee had found it at the door coming back through the mail, and had been very angry.

Mr. JENNER. Did she go beyond that?

Mrs. PAINE. She did not. To tell me what was in the letter, you mean?

Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking so much within the letter. Did she go beyond stating that he was merely only angry? Was there any discussion about his having struck her?

Mrs. PAINE. No; none. No; none. She never mentioned to me ever that Lee had struck her.

Mr. JENNER. And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as 15-1/2 days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, with respect to her?

Mrs. PAINE. There was never any such occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident?

Mrs. PAINE. She related this incident, but it did not include anything further than he had been very angry and hurt.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the 24th, had you ever seen any bruises----

Mrs. PAINE. No; I never saw her----

Mr. JENNER. On her person?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I never saw her bruised.

Mr. JENNER. At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have you ever seen her bruised?

Mrs. PAINE. At no time.

Mr. JENNER. So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during these 15 days of any occasion when Marina had gone off to live with someone else?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she told me that in the fall.

Mr. JENNER. I see. As long as I have raised that, would you please give us the time and the occasions and tell us what occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. What she told me?

Mr. JENNER. What she said. When was this?

Mrs. PAINE. This probably was in October. She told me that the previous year she had----

Mr. JENNER. 1962?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She had in the fall, she had gone to a friend's home, left Lee. She described his face as she left, as shocked and dismayed and unbelieving.

Mr. JENNER. Unbelieving?

Mrs. PAINE. In a sense that she was truly walking out on him.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Excuse me. Did she put it in those terms, that she was leaving?

Mrs. PAINE. She was leaving; yes.

Mr. JENNER. She left him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and went to stay with a friend. Then moved to the home----

Mr. JENNER. Did she name the friend?

Mrs. PAINE. She did not name the friend; no. The friend's name came up in another connection, but I had no way of making the connection until after I learned about this to whom she referred.

Mr. JENNER. Do you now recall the name?

Mrs. PAINE. She went to Katya Ford's.

The CHAIRMAN. To the Fords?

Mrs. PAINE. To Katya, being the friend, Mrs. Ford.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford.