Part 68

Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so. I don't recall. Did we say so this morning? I will have to look it over again.

Mr. JENNER. I am not permitted to testify, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. You want me to look right now? I usually write the addresses down myself, so it would be quite unusual for someone else to.

Mr. JENNER. Is this address book in the same condition now as it was when you gave it to the police?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not give it to the police, they took it, and I didn't know it was gone until later that day. It is in the same condition except it has been through the finger-printing process.

Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is all in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested in the entries on the page lettered "O," and I want to especially ask you whether that page is in the same condition now as it was when it was----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the witness why there are certain lines half horizontal, half perpendicular there, certain of these?

Mrs. PAINE. It means it is an old address, no longer applicable.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, you were referring to the page lettered "O"?

Mr. DULLES. That is correct; yes.

Mr. JENNER. I had digressed or interrupted at that point because you, for the first time, made reference to an entry in your address book made by Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document identified as Exhibit 401.

Mr. McCLOY. Where is that----

Mr. JENNER. 402 rather. That is the address book.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 402 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. And you were relating that you inquired as to how you could reach them if you had to reach them, and Mr. Lee Oswald wrote----

Mrs. PAINE. His work, the name of the company and the telephone number.

Mr. JENNER. I take it they did not have a telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. They did not; no.

Mr. JENNER. Did they ever have a telephone even when they were in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. When they came back again to Dallas, they did not?

Mrs. PAINE. They did not.

(At this point in the proceedings Senator Cooper left the Commission hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, was the April 2d occasion the second time that you had seen Lee----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald? You had not seen him in the interim?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you see him?

Mrs. PAINE. I next saw him on the 20th of April at a picnic at a park near where they lived on Neely Street.

Mr. JENNER. In between certainly the 2d of April and, possibly, in that period from the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, let us take that period up, until the time of the 20th, did you see Marina Oswald in between?

Mrs. PAINE. Did you say between the 2d----

Mr. JENNER. Between the 8th and 10th through the 20th.

Mrs. PAINE. I guess not; between the 11th or so and the 20th.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. So far as I know, no.

Mr. JENNER. How did you communicate with her about the picnic?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably by letter.

Mr. JENNER. By a letter. Do you have that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I have--I don't know if I have it. I have a letter that closes "October 20th" in my hand, a scratch note.

Mr. JENNER. Could I look at that correspondence this evening?

Mrs. PAINE. At the same time.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Then the next occasion was when you had the picnic on the 20th, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I notice in that entry what looks to me like "Miss Mary 7:15." What is the significance of that?

Mrs. PAINE. That is probably going out in the evening. It had no relationship with the picnic at all. It has a relationship with a dinner group which is at the time, you see the line "dinner group--7:15 Miss Mary," who is a babysitter.

Mr. JENNER. That entry has nothing to do with the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Without elaborating, please, Mrs. Paine, what would the subjects of discussion between you and Marina and Mr. Oswald have been at the picnic?

Mrs. PAINE. At the picnic?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. He spent most of his time fishing. We saw almost nothing of him and heard virtually nothing from him. I was impressed with his unwillingness to be sociable really in this situation. He came to eat when it was time to, and complained about the food.

Mr. JENNER. Did he complain about the food?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was your husband present at this picnic?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you supply the food?

Mrs. PAINE. No; Marina had cooked it. He complained about it. He caught a fish, as I recall, and took it home to be cleaned. I hardly know who would clean it.

Representative FORD. Who did clean it?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I left about that time.

Mr. JENNER. What discussion occurred between you and Lee Oswald, if any, with respect to his life in Russia on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him other than some pleasantries?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I can't even think of the pleasantry.

Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, as you were sitting there, the picnic took place in the park----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?

Mrs. PAINE. He was way over at the lake fishing.

Mr. DULLES. He was over fishing at the lake?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion occur between you and Marina on that occasion, or on any interim occasion, of Mr. Oswald's desire to have her return to Russia or the fact that she did not wish the Russian emigré group to know she was pregnant and was about to have a child?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. I did feel that it wasn't a particularly happy occasion. I don't recall it with lightness.

Mr. JENNER. Was he out of work at that time or not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was out of work. I knew at that time he was out of work. Whether I found out that morning or the previous time I had seen her I don't recall. I only recall when she said he was out of work she also said he had been out of work for a week or a few days before he told her.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you draw on your recollection as closely as you can. Did you learn of his being out of work from him or from Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. From her.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say on that subject as to whether he was discharged or whether he had left his employment, or did she say anything in that area?

Mrs. PAINE. I judged he had been discharged.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said.

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want something else?

Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall it that closely.

Mr. JENNER. You next have an entry on April 24 reading "Lee and Marina." Do you find it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was that held?

Mrs. PAINE. That was to be a visit at the apartment on Neely Street.

Mr. JENNER. At their apartment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did it take place?

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived and found that he was packed to go to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a surprise to you?

Mrs. PAINE. This was a distinct surprise.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been some communication between you and the Oswalds about your visiting them on the 24th of April?

Mrs. PAINE. It had been arranged that I would come over to visit as much as these other visits had been arranged, just with Marina to talk.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any visit with Marina between the 20th of April and the 24th?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Had you arranged on the 20th to visit on the 24th?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What time of day did you arrive, or night?

Mrs. PAINE. Mid-morning, perhaps around 10.

Mr. JENNER. And then you found him packed or packing to leave?

Mrs. PAINE. He was fully packed. I was evidently expected. I and my car, because he asked if I could take these bags and duffel bags, suitcases, to the bus station for him.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Where he would buy a ticket to go to New Orleans, and he said he had not been able to----

Mr. JENNER. What he said to you is what I am interested in.

Mrs. PAINE. That he said----

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. He said he had not been able to find work in Dallas, around Dallas, and Marina suggested going to New Orleans, which is where he had been born.

Mr. DULLES. He said she had suggested?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present now while he is relating this to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think so.

Mr. JENNER. She was present. Was he speaking in Russian or in English?

Mrs. PAINE. I think he must have been speaking in English when he asked me to take the things to the bus station and explained that he was going to look for work.

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection is that this was in English?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It could well have been in Russian also. He didn't like to speak English to me. He preferred to speak Russian.

The CHAIRMAN. To you?

Mrs. PAINE. To me; yes.

Representative FORD. Did he ever indicate why?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I think you said to me this morning, and please correct me if my recollection is not good, that he always spoke to you in Russian.

Mrs. PAINE. With, perhaps, a couple of rare exceptions, yes, he spoke to me in Russian. When I tried to teach him to drive I tried to explain to him, proceeded to explain to him in English.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you tried to teach him to do what?

Mrs. PAINE. To drive. This is later.

Mr. JENNER. Drive, yes.

Mrs. PAINE. But he would answer me in Russian, which is a way of getting the person to go back to Russian. But I couldn't explain driving in Russian, so I did it in English.

Mr. JENNER. That incident, Mrs. Paine, is very important, and we will get to that at a later stage as to your efforts to teach him to drive.

Going back to this 24th of April, there was here, this was, a complete surprise to you. You arrived at the home and this man was all packed to go to New Orleans.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with Marina about her coming to live with you of which she was aware prior to this occasion on April 24?

Mrs. PAINE. I had discussed with her the possibility of her coming at the time the baby was expected.

Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?

Mrs. PAINE. Mid-October.

Mr. JENNER. But there had been no discussion up to April 24, to your recollection, even about your inviting Marina to come to live with you?

Mrs. PAINE. You mean on a more permanent basis, other than to stay when the baby was due?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; which would be in the fall of the year.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. There was none.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion about her coming to live with you in the spring around about this time?

Mrs. PAINE. I remember feeling when I arrived that they were, and probably appropriately, making their own plans, and wondering whether I should have already made this invitation, but I had not.

Mr. JENNER. You say they were already making their own plans; are you seeking to imply that they had some notion she might join you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think there was any notion. I am trying to say I recall that I hadn't made that invitation at that time.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it is now that you had not discussed the subject with Marina up to this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Not the subject of staying on with me as an alternative to going back to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Only staying with you in the fall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When the baby came?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say, Mrs. Paine--excuse me. First, have you exhausted your recollection of everything that Lee Oswald said on that occasion when you arrived there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said, yes, I would take his bags to the station if he wanted me to.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And we then did.

Mr. JENNER. You just left?

Mrs. PAINE. Take them to the bus station to be checked.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina went, and he checked the baggage. It was rather more than he could have carried on the city bus, and I am sure he preferred me to a taxi because I don't cost as much.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't cost anything?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. And he then bought a ticket, he bought a ticket for Marina, I mean I was thinking, while he was in the bus station, and suggested that it would be a very difficult thing for a pregnant woman with a small child to take a 12-hour, 13-hour bus trip to New Orleans, and suggested that I drive her down with June.

Mr. JENNER. You volunteered this?

Mrs. PAINE. I volunteered this, and suggested further that instead of her staying at her--at the apartment, as was planned at that time, while waiting to hear from him, that she come and stay at my house where he would reach us by phone, and where she would have someone else with her while she waited to hear if he got work.

Mr. JENNER. This was the conversation between you and Lee Harvey Oswald? Was it in English or in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably in Russian. I would think so, because I wanted her to understand.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina along?

Mrs. PAINE. She was present.

Mr. JENNER. She was present; I see.

Representative FORD. This took place where, in the car?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably in the bus station--in the car near the bus station. He then took the bus ticket back, returned it, and got the money.

The CHAIRMAN. Ticket for her?

Mrs. PAINE. Ticket for her.

Mr. DULLES. Her bus ticket?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he left some money for her for buying things in the next few days before she could join him.

Mr. JENNER. Did he get on the bus then and depart?

Mrs. PAINE. No; the bus left in the evening. We all drove back to the apartment after he had checked the baggage, and he helped load the baby things and things that Marina would need during the next few days into my car, and we emptied what was left there of the things that were in the apartment, and which belonged to them, and then drove, I drove with Marina and June and my two children back to my house, and he stayed at the apartment. He was scheduled to leave by bus, city bus, and an interstate bus that evening.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then, Mrs. Paine, that your impression was that it was contemplated, when you arrived at the Oswalds that morning, that Mrs. Oswald, Marina, and her child June, and her husband, Lee, were contemplating going to New Orleans together that day?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Am I wrong?

Mrs. PAINE. That is wrong. She was to have stayed in the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. And wait to hear from him.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. If they had been going together that would not have been the hardship on her, but that traveling alone was, I felt.

Representative FORD. Why did he buy the ticket for her at the----

Mrs. PAINE. To leave with her so that she could follow him when he called, to leave the ticket in her hand as a means of her following him. I haven't been clear.

Mr. JENNER. It was a little indefinite.

Mr. DULLES. I thought the ticket had been redeemed; then he bought another ticket?

Mrs. PAINE. He bought a ticket for himself and a ticket for her.

Mr. DULLES. You said, "I will take her," and then he redeemed the ticket for her, and gave her the cash?

Mr. JENNER. Gave her some money?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But the ticket that he did buy for her----

Mrs. PAINE. Was to have been left with her.

The CHAIRMAN. Was for a subsequent date?

Mrs. PAINE. For a subsequent date following.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. That is it.

Mr. JENNER. That was clear to you on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. That was clear.

Mr. JENNER. She was scheduled to join him subsequently?

Mrs. PAINE. She was scheduled to join him subsequently if he did find work. If he found no work there would have been no point to her making the trip.

Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion or is it your rationalization?

Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly said she would stay.

Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled. I am puzzled, Mr. Jenner, about this ticket business.

Mr. JENNER. I am, too.

Mr. DULLES. A ticket was bought for her on the theory that she was going with him first.

Mr. McCLOY. No.

Mr. DULLES. That is where I got off the track. He bought two tickets, then why was the ticket redeemed?

Mr. McCLOY. Because it was made clear by Mrs. Paine that she was going to take Marina down in her own car.

Mr. DULLES. But only going to stay with you during the period until he got work, hence she wouldn't need a ticket. You were going to drive her down?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You would drive her down all the way to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. In either case it was planned to delay going.

Mr. DULLES. She would go down if he got work, but she would not need a ticket if she stayed with you. Therefore, the ticket was redeemed.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But I did not think of this or suggest it until after he had already bought the ticket.

Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mrs. Paine? In the things that were packed when you arrived, or things that were packed while you were present----

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was packed while I was present. It was already packed.

Representative FORD. Everything was already packed by the time you got there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Were any of the things for Marina or Lee packed?

Mrs. PAINE. They were all packed. I don't understand your question. All of the things he wanted to take with him to the bus station were already packed.

Representative FORD. Well, in that group of things which were so packed, were there things for Marina and Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. I mean Marina and June, excuse me?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Some of their things were among those things, yes, I judge so, clothing. The things that remained were a crib, playpen, baby stroller, some dishes, some clothing.

Representative FORD. The things you would not ordinarily take on a bus, however.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it would be very difficult. That was another one of the things that motivated me to suggest driving her down. I thought sending these by train, with the risk of their getting strayed or--it would be difficult, trying, for her to try to handle them, or convey them with her by bus--that would have been worse.

Representative FORD. But there were some things that were packed in the things that Lee was going to take with him that would include things----

Mrs. PAINE. That belonged to----

Representative FORD. To--to Marina and to June?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so simply by what remained. Surely it was not the total sum of her clothing and June's clothing.

Representative FORD. Which could lead a person to the conclusion that at one stage of their discussion Marina was going to accompany Lee to New Orleans.

Mrs. PAINE. Not from the time I arrived.

Representative FORD. From the station.

Mrs. PAINE. It was clear she would stay up in the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Up to that time it appeared to you from what was in the duffelbag----

Mrs. PAINE. I think he was carrying all he could to lighten her burden. In other words, if and when she followed, he was carrying all he could.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford is interested in this, Mrs. Paine----

Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled, too.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived at the Oswald apartment that morning, Lee Oswald had duffelbags packed and some----

Mrs. PAINE. Suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Suitcases. He had in those suitcases and in the duffelbag some of the apparel for Mrs.--Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I did not see it. I have to guess what was in it.

Mr. JENNER. But, from your knowledge of the household and afterwards, this was at least your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. That they must have included some of her things.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Which, in turn, might lead to the inference that, therefore, they contemplated at that moment from what he was taking that Marina was ultimately to join him in New Orleans.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Was that your question?

Representative FORD. Or even at one point in the process of packing, she and June were going to accompany him to New Orleans on the bus.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that impression, no. No, he was going and happened to stay with an aunt and uncle where he could live without much charge. For her to come would have been quite a greater expense, and a risky one without a job, nothing coming in, so he was hoping that he could stay with the aunt and uncle while he looked, and then if he got remunerative work, get an apartment and call her to come, too.

Representative FORD. If that is so, and let us assume that is so----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. It puzzles me that he went into the bus station and bought two tickets, one for himself and one for her.

Mrs. PAINE. How would she get there?

Representative FORD. Well, eventually she might have to go by bus. But why should he at this time make an investment in a bus ticket when there was no certainty----

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Representative FORD. When she might follow? This is what puzzles me.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Well, I can only guess about this. I judge from his having done this that he certainly intended for her to follow, and it is also possible she couldn't have asked for a bus ticket herself. If he had written her and said, "Don't come to New Orleans, come to Nashville," and he had said, "That is where I have got my job," he might have felt she would not know how to go and get such a bus ticket.

Mr. DULLES. Is it also possible he may not have wanted to leave that amount of money with her to buy a ticket and preferred to leave her a ticket rather than cash?

Mrs. PAINE. This is possible, this is possible.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, Mrs. Paine, in light of that speculation, tell us what discussion there was on the subject.

Mrs. PAINE. I think I have, that while he was in the bus station I thought how difficult it would be for her to travel alone with the baby, and all the things----

Mr. JENNER. And you raised that yourself for the first time at that point?

Mrs. PAINE. Then I said she might stay with me while waiting to hear from him, and that I would drive her down if we did hear that he had gotten work.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been prior discussion that it was contemplated that, if he obtained a position, she would join him in New Orleans, or wherever he obtained a position.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had already talked about that at the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. And that had been discussed with her present?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And discussed in Russian so that she could have understood the discussion?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the staff is interested in Lee Harvey Oswald's luggage.

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. His luggage.

Mrs. PAINE. Luggage.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please, to the best of your recollection, tell us what pieces of luggage he had on that occasion, what they looked like, their shape and form?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He had two large marine duffelbags with his name on them, and probably his Marine serial number. It was marked with a good deal of white paint. It stood quite high.

Mr. JENNER. Were they up-ended when you say high? You mean standing on end, they were high?

Mrs. PAINE. Standing on their end they would come well above this table.

Mr. JENNER. I see. About 40 inches?

Mrs. PAINE. Something like that; I would guess so.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I am interested in just that. Would you go over to the drawing board and move your hand, judge from the floor, and stop right there? We will measure that later.