Part 67

Senator COOPER. I must say there, that is an old term even in Kentucky. You take some person some place you carry them.

Mrs. PAINE. You carry them; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is an odd expression to me.

Mrs. PAINE. I have been in Texas longer than I think.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then there were two occasions when you visited her.

Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were two down there, and then I asked her, went to pick her up and brought her to my home and we spent a portion of the day at my home, and I then took her back.

Mr. JENNER. This was at your invitation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; surely.

Mr. JENNER. Had you by this time--let us take the March 20 affair, occasion--had you some feeling of affinity or liking for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a person?

Mrs. PAINE. I did feel that she was in a difficult position from the first I met her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, chronologically, would you in your own words, so that I don't suggest anything to you, what was the next occasion?

The next time it was under circumstances in which you went to her home in your station wagon, picked her up and brought her to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. It was probably then that she mentioned to me that Lee wanted her to go back to the Soviet Union, was asking her to go back.

Mr. JENNER. He mentioned this subject as early as that, did he not?

Mrs. PAINE. This was still in March.

Mr. JENNER. She did?

Mrs. PAINE. She did, yes; and said that she didn't want to go.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in that. Would you please relate it?

Mrs. PAINE. She said she did not want to go back, that he asked her to go back, told her, perhaps, to go back.

Mr. JENNER. State just as accurately----

Mrs. PAINE. As she described it I felt----

Mr. JENNER. Just what she said now, please.

Mrs. PAINE. He told her he wanted to send her back with June.

Mr. JENNER. Alone?

Mrs. PAINE. To the Soviet Union. As she described it, I judged that meant----

Mr. JENNER. Please----

Mrs. PAINE. A divorce----

Mr. JENNER. Instead of saying as she described it tell us what she said, if you can.

Mrs. PAINE. She said that she had written to the Soviet Embassy to ask about papers to go back, and received a reply from them saying, "Why do you want to go back?" And she said she just didn't answer that letter because she didn't want to go back, and that that was where the matter stood at that time.

Mr. JENNER. She had not answered the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. The inquiry from the Embassy. She did not answer it.

Mr. DULLES. Did she say whether or not she showed that answer from the Soviet Embassy to her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't say.

Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that Marina said to you that she thought that meant a divorce?

Mrs. PAINE. I will state again that she felt she was being sent back to stay back, that he would stay here, that this amounted to the end of the marriage for them, but not legally done.

Mr. JENNER. I see. And did she express any opinion of opposition to that?

Mrs. PAINE. She particularly was opposed to going back. It was leaving the United States that she was opposed to.

Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay here, did she?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so.

Mr. JENNER. I ask you this general question, then, Mrs. Paine: During all of your contact with Marina Oswald, did she ever express any view other than that one of wanting to remain in America?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. What did she? Was she affirmative about it?

Mrs. PAINE. Very.

Mr. JENNER. Of wanting to stay in this country?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what did you say when she related that her husband wanted her to return to Russia, and she thought to remain in Russia. Did it elicit some curiosity from you?

Mrs. PAINE. Curiosity? It elicited anger at Lee that he would presume to drop his responsibilities so preemptorily.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter to her in an effort to gather my words. I couldn't just discuss it with her. My language was not that good. What I wanted to do was offer her an alternative to being sent back, an economic alternative, and I thought for some time and thought over a week about inviting her to live with me. I was alone with my two children at the time, as an alternative to being sent back. If he thought he couldn't support her or didn't care to or whatever reason he had, I simply wanted to say there was an alternative to her going back, that she could stay and live with me if she wanted to. I wrote such a letter, really, to gather----

Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. This letter was never sent.

Mr. JENNER. Is that also at the hotel?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. It may be here. I can look if you want. This letter was never sent and never mentioned to her. I wrote it so that I would have the words before me to use if it seemed appropriate to me to make the invitation, you see, a way of gathering enough of the language, enough Russian, and to say what I wanted to say. And this letter is dated the 7th of April.

Mr. JENNER. The 7th of April?

Mrs. PAINE. And I know I spent at least a week thinking about it. I talked it over with Michael before I wrote it, and it is plainly marked "never sent" on the letter. I carried it with me, as I recall I carried it once to the apartment so that if----

Mr. JENNER. To what apartment?

Mrs. PAINE. To their apartment on Neely Street, so that if it seemed appropriate I could hand it to her, you see. I could make this invitation at home with time and a dictionary in hand, and then let her read it. It was ever so much easier than just trying to say it.

Mr. McCLOY. Though you never delivered it, did you ever speak from it to her?

Mrs. PAINE. When she was staying with me the last few days of April and the first week of May, I made, yes, a verbal invitation of that sort, and in the April 7 letter, I have just gone over this correspondence or I wouldn't recall what it said, but----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I think we can take the time to see if you have the letter in your bag.

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry that I feel precipitated into a discussion of this correspondence, and I would rather--no, it is not here--go at it--there are several things I want to say about it. I began to mention it to Mr. Jenner this morning and thought we would have a whole afternoon to talk more.

Mr. JENNER. We will have time tonight, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. You will have time tonight?

Mr. JENNER. I thought Mr. Redlich might look at the letter. I didn't want to delay the Commission. You do have it at hand?

Mrs. PAINE. It is not here. It is at the hotel.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to something else for the moment, then, first.

What reasons did Marina give, if she gave any, as to why her husband wished her to return to Russia? What did she say on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No explanation?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I meant by that last question to imply that there might have been another occasion subsequently in which the subject was discussed again in which she did state what Mr. Oswald's reasons were, if any?

Mrs. PAINE. She never stated any reasons.

Mr. JENNER. Never?

Mrs. PAINE. She implied that it was because he didn't want her.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't what?

Mrs. PAINE. Want her.

Mr. JENNER. What is the date of this letter, April 7?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. We will take a brief recess.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to your calendar, please. What is the next day, date, in your calendar, in which you have an entry?

Mrs. PAINE. Regarding the Oswalds?

Mr. JENNER. Regarding the Oswalds.

Mrs. PAINE. It is April 2, Tuesday.

Mr. JENNER. What is the entry?

Mrs. PAINE. "Marina and Lee dinner."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I take it that by this time, that is, up to April 2 you had had several visits with Marina and you had reached the point at which you invited them to your home for dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, Michael had never met either. By this time I had talked to him. I had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And so I wanted him to meet them and invited them both to come to dinner.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, if I seem presumptuous.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you have stated several times, and now you state you inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite Marina to stay with you. Didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part to invite a man's wife to come to live with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, toward Lee it was presumptuous.

Mr. JENNER. Beg pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. Presumptuous in relation to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. In relation to Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is. Well, I will have to refer again to the letter of April 7 where I said I didn't want to hurt Lee by such an invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if he just did not want to live with her, that I would have offered this as an alternative, really to both of them. I didn't want to get into a position of competition with Lee for his wife. I thought about that, and thought he might be very offended.

Mr. JENNER. It is possible he might very well be.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but I didn't think anything about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of him up to this moment on this score?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. As a man of temper?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Violence?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None of that?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had met him once.

Mr. JENNER. You invited the Oswalds to dinner on the evening of April 2?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Tuesday.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, Michael picked them up.

Mr. JENNER. Who did?

Mrs. PAINE. Michael picked them up.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. At the Neely Street address. Has he talked about that? It didn't come up?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know. I haven't the slightest notion. I was talking with you.

Mrs. PAINE. Should I go ahead? I just want to get this first impression into the record somewhere if he hasn't already.

Representative FORD. I think it would be helpful if you gave your impression of his impression.

Mr. JENNER. Of his impression.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. This I have learned since the assassination, he didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much.

Mr. JENNER. Please, you are not giving us your impression of his impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said to you after the assassination.

Mrs. PAINE. You still want it?

Representative FORD. I think it is important.

Mr. DULLES. Let us hear it.

Mrs. PAINE. He said--you must understand, that not living together we talked together very little. I am sure he would have given me his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day afterwards, you see. He went over and Marina was not yet ready. He thought that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. While doing absolutely nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave orders while he himself sat down and talked to Michael, and Michael carried the impression that Lee was somewhat thoughtless.

Mr. DULLES. What did you do? That was about a half hour--what did you do during that period?

Mrs. PAINE. I was at the house preparing the dinner.

Mr. DULLES. You were at home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It has to be my impression of his impressions. I don't recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. I do recall we certainly had dinner together. I can't recall what the predominant language was. Lee and Michael, of course, talked in English. Not wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, I made opportunity to talk with her in Russian after the meal was over. She and I did the dishes and talked in Russian, and we were in the kitchen while Michael was talking to Lee in English in the living room, so I do not know what was said then between the two of them.

Mr. JENNER. How did your husband get along with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, you probably have something on that.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? I want your impression of how your husband got along.

Mrs. PAINE. Okay. He was initially very interested in learning what sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step to go to the Soviet Union and attempt to renounce his citizenship. He thought here is a person that must have thought things out for himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses, and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led Lee to this step.

Michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much ideology or thought, foundation. That Michael had thought he might be able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking going on or inquiry, but he didn't find it. He rather found very rigid adherence to a few principles such as the principle of the capitalist exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the capitalistic society. Michael's own feeling was that Lee's view of morality was very different from Michael's.

Mr. JENNER. In what respect, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Michael recalls having--now, this is later. This is not that evening. Did you expect it was? This is answering your question of Michael's impression of Lee.

Mr. JENNER. I wanted his initial impression.

Mrs. PAINE. All initial impressions. Well, I have passed that. I have gone considerably past it, in fact.

Mr. JENNER. I see. How many times had you seen Marina up to this moment, that is, up to April 2?

Mrs. PAINE. It was two or three times besides the initial party in February.

Mr. JENNER. And your best recollection is that this was a nice, pleasant evening, and that was about all?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband take the Oswald's home that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This is the second. When was the next occasion that you had contact with either of the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation of the eighth of April. I am looking on my calendar, I have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth which has an arrow going to the eleventh.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a little bit about that before you go into it. Would you describe for the Commission now the condition, the physical condition, of your calendar there?

Mrs. PAINE. Physical?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. There is a square, and in the square there is written something.

Mrs. PAINE. "Marina" is written this time in Russian. I am improving, it seems.

Mr. JENNER. In Russian. It is in the square dated April 10.

Mrs. PAINE. I am talking now about the square on April 8. There is a notation "Marina".

Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all that is in that square.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Then the only thing that appears in the square for April 10 is the name "Marina" in Russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from it pointing, to April 11.

Mr. JENNER. Now, go back, if you will, to April 8.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to whether you had any contact with Marina on that day or whether it was prearranged and what the occasion was?

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to get together. Whether we did I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. I thought you had read everything that appeared in that square. Is there more than just the word "Marina" in the square?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. That is my recollection. But that refreshes your recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, all of these were, since there was no way over the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you prepared dated April 7, which is the day before?

Mrs. PAINE. I might have taken it that day, I don't know. Yes; it is entirely possible. I hadn't thought about it.

Mr. JENNER. But anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It does not. You have no recollection beyond the fact that on April 8 you have an entry with the word "Marina." Is that written in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The word "Marina" in Russian, it doesn't stimulate you in any respect, does not stimulate your recollection?

Representative FORD. At the time of the dinner at your home on April 2, following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion about General Walker between your husband and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recollect any such discussion.

Representative FORD. That night?

Mrs. PAINE. If there was any it would have had to have been in the living room while I was talking to Marina in Russian in the kitchen. I didn't hear any reference to it.

Representative FORD. You didn't hear any discussion that evening between your husband and Lee Oswald about General Walker?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any such discussion?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it. There was one reference, but that was later.

Representative FORD. That was later. Do you recall when?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It would be the Friday after U.N. Day, October the 4th.

Representative FORD. That was October 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. And this was April 2d?

Mrs. PAINE. 1963.

Representative FORD. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any discussion of General Walker at all with Marina or in the presence of Marina or with Lee Oswald or in his presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the subject of General Walker up to April 11, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Any discussion between yourself and your husband on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you subscribe to a newspaper?

Mrs. PAINE. At that time I subscribed to the Irving local paper.

Mr. JENNER. Is that an evening or a morning paper?

Mrs. PAINE. At that time it was a morning paper.

Mr. JENNER. Morning paper. Do you have a recollection of being aware in the edition of April 11 of an attack on General Walker the night before?

Mrs. PAINE. It is more likely that I heard it on television. I think I must have heard it.

Mr. JENNER. You have a television and a radio?

Mrs. PAINE. We get news from the television.

Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of the attack on General Walker the evening of April 10. Did you see Marina Oswald on the 11th?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar.

Mr. JENNER. We would like your very best recollection, please, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall; I just don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't have any present recollection that you did see her on the 11th or you didn't? You just have no--you are blank?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess from the calendar, that is all.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. If you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her apartment?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't even know that.

Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth?

Mrs. PAINE. I remember that I made such trips, but which day it is, it is very difficult to know.

Mr. DULLES. I see. But you think--have you had a recollection about seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and Marina on the subject of the General Walker incident?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to recall now when she first told me that Lee was out of work. The next note I have of having seen them, and you must understand this calendar by no means tells everything I have done or would even be accurate about what I have done on account of what has happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work.

Mr. JENNER. Was it some point near the time we are now discussing?

Mrs. PAINE. Near the time we are now discussing. I am trying to get some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did I see her, what happened. The next date I have down for seeing her is a picnic on the 20th of April.

Mr. JENNER. Had she told you----

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it having been that long, but it probably was, between the 11th and the picnic. It was before the picnic she told that he was out of work and had been for a few days before he told her.

Now, you probably know when he was out of work, but I don't, when he lost his job. So I am judging that possibly this was mentioned on the 11th that he was out of work, because we did plan to have a picnic on the 20th which included Lee, but it could have been even that day that she told me that he was out of work and had been for some time.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any day on or about this time, the 10th or 11th or 12th, within those 3 days, that you saw Marina, where your attention was arrested by her being upset or disturbed?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In any fashion?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I notice in your calendar and entry April 16, "St. Marks open again 12 noon." Is that the school your children attend?

Mrs. PAINE. No, they are both preschool age. It must have been an Easter--my children are preschool age.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of your making that entry?

Mrs. PAINE. I probably wanted to visit the class.

Mr. JENNER. What class?

Mrs. PAINE. A language class. This is a school at which I subsequently taught. Last summer I taught at St. Marks School.

Mr. JENNER. You were visiting the class in advance of your teaching?

Mrs. PAINE. So I probably wanted to visit--no, just any language class there, and inquired, I judge, you see, you will find on Good Friday no school, too, the 12th. So I was marking when the Easter vacation was for St. Marks in order to make plans sometime later to go and visit.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you return to April 2, that dinner. Is that entry "dinner at 8"? I couldn't quite figure out----

Mrs. PAINE. I believe that is the 7.

Mr. JENNER. Seven. Was anything said that night about Lee Oswald's work?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing.

Mr. JENNER. About his job?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked him how could I reach them if I had to call off a get-together. I had no way of telephoning Marina. If the child got sick how would I tell her I am not coming. So I said could I have his telephone at work in order to reach them through him if I felt it necessary some time, and he wrote down for me the address and telephone number of the place where he worked. This was on the 2d of April.

Mr. JENNER. And that, I will turn to that, if I might, and that will be Commission Exhibit 402, and we have a like photograph of the exhibit. Is all of that exhibit in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have just said he wrote down Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. There is one entry that is in his handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Give us the letter page of that, will you?

Mrs. PAINE. The letter page, "O" for Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. "O" for Oswald. The entry Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was written by Mr. Oswald; all other entries on that page are in your handwriting; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are all other entries in the entire address book in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Did we go over it? What did I say?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, we did this morning.