Part 66

Mr. JENNER. Well, I wish you wouldn't. You meant, then, by your expression that you hoped to find that she did speak educated Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right.

Mr. JENNER. And if she did, that then you might profit or learn from her educated Russian to a greater degree than you knew it as of that time? That was your main interest at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Aside from interests in another lady or human being under those circumstances?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, until I then got to know her it was my only interest.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is the point I was seeking to make. Did you become better acquainted with the Oswalds thereafter?

Mrs. PAINE. I met----

Mr. JENNER. Did you, first, yes or no?

Mrs. PAINE. I became better acquainted with Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if members of the Commission--I am going to pass from this initial event--if you have any questions you would like to put to the witness now rather than my deferring it.

Mr. McCLOY. Are there any questions?

The CHAIRMAN. Not for me.

Representative FORD. Not at this point.

Senator COOPER. No.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one? Did Oswald, Lee Oswald on this occasion express any dislike for any elements or aspects of American society?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything specific that was said.

Mr. McCLOY. He did not indicate to this group why it was that he left the United States to go to Russia originally?

Mrs. PAINE. It is hard to say how I formed this opinion, but I gathered that he disapproved of the economic system.

Mr. McCLOY. Was there anything more specific than that that he referred to? Did he refer, for example, to any dislike of individuals?

Mrs. PAINE. Individuals? No; I am certain there was none.

Mr. McCLOY. In government or out of government?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Your impression was that he was motivated to go to the Soviet Union because he didn't like the capitalist system?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. And had an affinity for what might be called the Marxist system, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. That is all the questions that I have.

Mr. JENNER. Along those lines, Mrs. Paine, did he make any remarks with respect to workers in Russia as compared with the position, the economic position of workers in America? Did he refer to workers as a subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. I am trying to refresh your recollection. You said economics, he thought that the economic situation was superior in Russia. I wonder whether he related it to the ordinary worker rather than the overall system.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember.

Representative FORD. How well did Marina speak English at the time you made the first acquaintance or first contact?

Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression she spoke no English at all.

Representative FORD. Did she appear to understand any English at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she understood much of anything.

Mr. JENNER. That was your definite impression?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear her speak any English words that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper?

Senator COOPER. I believe you said a few minutes ago that you were interested in knowing why Lee Oswald left the United States and went to Russia. Did you say that?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall saying it. I suppose I was curious.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't recall that she actually said that. She said it was an interesting situation.

Mrs. PAINE. It was unusual, I think I probably said.

Mr. McCLOY. She used the word unusual.

Mrs. PAINE. An unusual thing to do, certainly.

Senator COOPER. I don't want to say that you said something you didn't, but I got the impression that one of the reasons you were interested in meeting this family was in fact that this man had left the United States and gone to Russia.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. In some sense?

Mrs. PAINE. Not in any sense whatever.

Mr. McCLOY. As I recall it she did say that this was an unusual situation, and that to some extent developed your interest. This is Mr. Dulles, a member of the Commission.

Senator COOPER. Maybe I could put it this way. Perhaps we could read back and find out, but I thought that you intimated or indicated that you were interested in the fact that this man had gone to Russia.

Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps I can answer your question----

Senator COOPER. And it provoked your interest.

Mrs. PAINE. I can answer it this way. I was interested at the party to hear something of what he had to say. I was hopeful when I wrote and inquired if I could see Marina where they lived; and knowing that he would be at work, that I would try to go during the week when I would have a chance simply to talk with her.

Senator COOPER. That night he did say that he did not like the capitalist system?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.

Senator COOPER. Were you interested, then, in finding out what it was about it he didn't like?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. In reference to his experience in Russia or for any other reason?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. You didn't inquire further to have him elaborate on his reasons for not liking the capitalist system?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Of course, it is a rather short space of time we are talking about, perhaps 45 minutes or so or less. People were inquiring of him.

Mr. JENNER. But others did inquire on these subjects?

Mrs. PAINE. For the most part the other people asked questions, yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the subject that Senator Cooper has inquired about, is that true?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Now perhaps to help your recollection a little bit on that, was this roommate of whom you speak named Volkmar Schmidt?

Mrs. PAINE. Volkmar sounds familiar.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a couple by the name of Richard Pierce, or a gentleman at least by the name of Richard Pierce who attended that meeting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that would be the other roommate, not a couple, he was single, Richard Pierce.

Mr. JENNER. Was there not present a Miss Betty MacDonald?

Mrs. PAINE. Which I had completely forgotten about, yes; there was.

Mr. JENNER. And you still are unable to recall the name of the other couple?

Mrs. PAINE. I am unable to. Betty MacDonald I do recall lives in the same apartment building as this couple, and it is a long German sort of name, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with Mr. Glover through your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, you might say so. We both became interested in going to madrigal sings at the same time. My interest in madrigals was developed by Michael, but that was before we ever moved to Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Were you teaching Russian at this time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You were not? Had you done any teaching of Russian prior to this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You subsequently did some teaching; have you done some teaching of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Just this past summer.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I will get to that in due course. Did you do some translating that evening for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. I spoke to her very little. I was embarrassed to.

Mr. JENNER. Why was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Because my Russian was so poor, and the De Mohrenschildts could both do it all so much better.

Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Oswald's command of Russian very good, also?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear him speak Russian that night at all.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so?

Mrs. PAINE. He may have, but I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. He did no translating?

Mrs. PAINE. No. For her, no.

Mr. JENNER. For Marina. And on no occasion--he sat there and on none of the occasions did he translate, but, rather, Mr. De Mohrenschildt did the translating?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't even believe that was translating. They would address themselves to her in a separate conversation from what was going on from these three or four around him.

Mr. JENNER. So that those who did not understand Russian got nothing from it?

Mrs. PAINE. Those who did not understand English got nothing from what he was saying--is that what you mean, or do you mean the other way?

Mr. JENNER. If no one interpreted her in English, translated for her.

Mrs. PAINE. No one understood it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then whose who didn't understand Russian----

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did not understand what she was saying?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that went on through the entire evening?

Mrs. PAINE. You must understand she was not present for, I would say, more than half of the evening. She was just with her child.

Mr. JENNER. But while she was present.

Mrs. PAINE. There was no translation done for her benefit.

Mr. JENNER. Or for the benefit of anybody else who did not understand Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. The other way; no. It is a long time ago.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. Was anything the subject that evening of Mrs. Oswald's family background? Was that discussed?

Mrs. PAINE. Of Marina's?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing.

Mr. JENNER. It was not discussed at anytime during that evening, the fact that she was in Russia, she had been educated as, and was, a pharmacist?

Mrs. PAINE. That might have been said. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction to the De Mohrenschildts that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I had heard from Everett that they were interesting people, that they had gone on a hiking tour through Mexico taking pictures as they went. I learned or had known from Everett, also, in this one telephone conversation, that he was a geologist, a free lancer.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt seemed somewhat protective toward Marina in the sense of wanting her to understand what was--wanting to talk with her, to include her. Mr. De Mohrenschildt talked about his past life some in English.

Mr. JENNER. His speaking of his past life was in English?

Mrs. PAINE. Was in English. I recalled to him his first wife who was also a Quaker. I remember he said that.

Mr. JENNER. When was your next contact with either Marina Oswald or Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter, a note to Marina at the address I had been given, and got a note back saying, "We have moved. This is the new address. Come in perhaps a week." From that time. She wanted to get the house cleaned up before I came.

Mr. JENNER. They lived in Dallas, did they not?

Mrs. PAINE. That was in Dallas; yes.

Mr. JENNER. On this February 22 occasion they were then living on Neely Street in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe they moved just in that period that I had the previous address, and as soon as I wrote, the first letter I got back gave the Neely Street address.

Mr. JENNER. You have recorded that, have you not, in your address book?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which I will follow up in a moment. Do you have a copy of the letter that you wrote to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. No. That initial letter asking if I could come over? I don't believe I do.

Mr. JENNER. Not having----

Mrs. PAINE. I have her reply.

Mr. JENNER. You do have a reply?

Mrs. PAINE. I have her reply.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have it with you?

Mrs. PAINE. She drew a map. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. May I have it, please?

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want it right now?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. Wait--no; perhaps I have it at the hotel. I don't think it is here. I didn't think I would be before the Commission today at all.

Mr. JENNER. We will pass that. You can get it tonight.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am certain I have it.

Mr. DULLES. That was written in Russian, I assume.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; in my letter to her, bad Russian.

Mr. JENNER. As long as you have the letter I don't want you to attempt to summarize it then, but you did write her a note in which you sought to come see her. She responded advising you of a change of address. There would be some delay, I gather, because she wished to get her home in order, having just moved. And this exchange of letters took place approximately when?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early March some time.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I think her letter is postmarked the 8th of March.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. After that exchange of letters, did you see Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go to her home or did she come to yours?

Mrs. PAINE. I drove to her home. There would be no way for her to come.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had another exchange of letters before you went to her home?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. You just waited a few days, guessed how long it would take her to have her home in order, and you visited her, am I correct in my summary?

Mrs. PAINE. She suggested Tuesday, as I recall in her letter, but what Tuesday I don't know. If it was written the 8th that would be Tuesday the 12th. There is no notation on my calendar.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have her response to your letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is what I have.

Mr. JENNER. In the hotel. We will get that this evening. Was Mr. Oswald home when you visited her?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. On the next occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. He was not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make a description in your calendar with respect to this visit?

Mrs. PAINE. I judge not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you find any in your calendar?

Mrs. PAINE. With respect to this visit?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, that calendar is all in your handwriting, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 401 the document that has been given that exhibit number.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 401, was received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. What time of day was this visit, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. It was midmorning, up to lunchtime. She had hoped I could stay through lunch but I wanted to get back so my children could have naps.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anybody at home to care for your children when you made this visit?

Mrs. PAINE. I took them.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, you took them.

Mrs. PAINE. Therefore, I wanted to get them home to take naps.

Mr. JENNER. What is the driving time from your home in Irving----

Mrs. PAINE. Thirty-five to forty minutes.

Mr. JENNER. To the Neely Street address of the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it--or was Mr. Oswald home?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just Marina? And that visit--tell us about that visit, please.

Mrs. PAINE. I fear my recollection may meld one or two visits that occurred in March.

Mr. JENNER. It might be a good idea, then,--go ahead and tell us about them in a melded form.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. I recall we walked out to a nearby park.

Mr. DULLES. In both cases?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure.

Mr. DULLES. You think so?

Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, I recall walking to the park, and I think this was the first visit, and we sat and talked. It was warm weather, March, in Dallas. And the children played on the park equipment, and we talked, and she told me that she was expecting a baby, and asked me not to talk about it among the Russian community.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had anything been said on that subject when you first met Marina Oswald the night of February 22?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing? This was your first notice of that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she told you not--would you repeat that, please?

Mrs. PAINE. She told me that she was expecting a child.

Mr. JENNER. She told you not to do what?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to tell members of the Russian-speaking community in Dallas. She preferred for it not to be publicly known, so to speak.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in contact with the Russian-speaking community in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is a contact I could have had. It was reasonable for her to assume I might be.

Mr. JENNER. But you said nothing in response to that. Did you reassure her?

Mrs. PAINE. I just said I wouldn't talk about it, that it was up to her to make such an announcement when she felt like it.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question at this point?

You said Lee Oswald was not there. A little earlier in your testimony you said you hoped he would not be there.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. McCLOY. Why did you say that? Was it because you took any dislike to his being there or was it merely because you wanted exclusive contact with Marina, or both?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly wanted to make the contact with Marina. She had not appeared as a person at all at the party. I couldn't tell what sort of person she was, and I felt meeting alone with her would make an opportunity both to speak the language and to find out what sort of person she was.

Mr. McCLOY. Go on. Did you have any further motivation for that wish? Did you take any dislike to him?

Mrs. PAINE. Not an active dislike, but I didn't like him. I think we can say that.

Mr. JENNER. And you gathered that impression the evening of February 22?

Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to know whether I gathered it then or in terms of things she told me then after we met, and I will outline them.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will get into those.

Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was more formed later.

Mr. JENNER. And in your responding to Mr. McCloy's question you were attempting to transport yourself back to that particular occasion and not be affected by the course of events that had taken place in the meantime, am I correct about that?

Mrs. PAINE. I tried to.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability. Tell us a little more, then, to the extent you have a recollection what occurred and what was said in the park on that occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall that we talked, and, as I said, it may be the first visit or it may have been the first and the second melded in my mind. She said that she was expecting a baby. She said that Lee didn't want her to learn English. He was not encouraging her to learn English or helping her with it, that he spoke only Russian to her and to their baby June. And she told me--now, let me say that my calendar does show a notation on the 20th of March, it says, "Marina" and I judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, or brought her to my house, I am not certain which. But I judge, also, that this was the second visit.

Mr. JENNER. I suggest that you might have melded these a moment ago. Now I wish you would keep these apart for the moment.

Mrs. PAINE. So far as I can.

Mr. JENNER. And stick with the occasion in the park first and exhaust your recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I was impressed, talking with her in the park, with what I felt to be her need to have a friend. This was virtually our first meeting, but she confided to me something that she didn't want generally known among the Russian segment.

Mr. JENNER. That was her pregnancy?

Mrs. PAINE. Of Dallas. She inquired of me, a young woman, about birth control methods, and she said that she felt--well, clearly this pregnancy had surprised her, but she said that she didn't believe in abortion, and didn't want to consider such a course.

Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all I recall; yes.

I do not recall whether it was this time or the next time, it may well have been the next time, that she told me that----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please.

Mrs. PAINE. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to stick with this. When Mrs. Oswald, this is your first visit, she related to you and said that her husband did not wish her to acquire any command of the English language, what did you say? Did you express yourself in some fashion as to why? Didn't that seem curious to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I likely said that----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. It is best you don't guess.

Give us your best recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that she did most of the talking because she could. My Russian was bad enough that if she talked I was happy.

Mr. JENNER. Did you feel any embarrassment because you were----

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, a terrible embarrassment.

Mr. JENNER. You did?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a terrible impediment to talking and to friendship.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would elaborate on that because I am sure the members of the Commission would like to have your mental reaction to what you thought was your limited command of the Russian language and whether it interfered with communication between you.

Mrs. PAINE. It interfered very markedly.

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate?

Mrs. PAINE. I could think of many more things to say than I could think of the words to use in order to say it in Russian. I want to keep jumping ahead to illustrate this. But just it was very difficult for me to communicate.

I understand much more readily than I speak, so that I could understand what she was saying to me easily, especially as she took care to see that she used small words and made herself understood.

But it was very difficult for me just to speak. I could not possibly have reacted to her as I would to someone else in English, as I would if she had been speaking English.

Mr. DULLES. At this time you felt that she could not gain very much if you talked to her in English?

Mrs. PAINE. I was certain of that, yes.

Mr. DULLES. But later she had improved, apparently?

Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. That was after the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I never knew her to speak English at all.

Mr. DULLES. Or to understand?

I wasn't speaking of just speaking, but about the comprehension of it.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said to me in November that she has changed from never listening to an English conversation to giving it some of her attention because she is able to pick up some words. You know how if you don't understand anything there is no point even----

Mr. DULLES. I personally got the impression when she was here that she understood a good deal of English.

Mrs. PAINE. I believe she does, yes.

Mr. DULLES. But this time she did not have that facility at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you not think it was curious that her husband was adverse to her acquiring some facility with the English language?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was distinctly thoughtless on his part, even cruel.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her to the extent that you could in your limited command of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I think the easiest thing was to agree with what she was saying about it, agree with what she was saying.

Mr. JENNER. Which was what?

Mrs. PAINE. Which is that this wasn't the way it should be and I certainly agreed.

Mr. JENNER. She complained, did she?

Mrs. PAINE. She complained, yes.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she express an interest, then, in acquiring some facility?

Mrs. PAINE. Not against his wishes, no. She didn't express an interest. In learning English through me, for instance.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. She showed no interest unlike the interest you had in her helping you with Russian, she showed no interest at that moment in learning from you some command of the English language?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now you think the second occasion occurring in your calendar entry there was possibly March 20?

Mr. JENNER. And what is the entry?

Mrs. PAINE. It says, "Marina".

Mr. JENNER. And that is the only word?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all it says.

Mr. JENNER. In that square?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably I went again to her home.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Does that refresh your recollection as to anything on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It does not?

Mrs. PAINE. I am guessing, again, that this was the second meeting. I think I went to her home twice before I carried her from her place to my home, which was considerably more of an event, since it was 35 or 40 minutes each way, going twice in one day.

Mr. JENNER. You say carry?

Mrs. PAINE. Carry, that is a good Texas term for driving a person in a car.