Part 65

Mr. JENNER. 1959. Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover.

Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment.

Mrs. PAINE. Okay. I had not met her before that.

Mr. JENNER. At this time you and your husband were living in your present home in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. In '59.

Mr. JENNER. At the time that you met Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Michael moved to an apartment in September of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. There had been some strained relations or difficulties between yourself and your husband Michael. When we shake our heads we don't get it on the record.

The answer to that is "Yes"?

Mrs. PAINE. Is "No." I had not met her when there had been some strained relations between me and my husband. It is just we are having difficulties with words.

Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at--there had been some strained relations, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Paine had moved to separate quarters. This was in September of 1962, correct.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You met Marina for the first time when.

Mrs. PAINE. I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of February of 1963.

Mr. JENNER. You were then living with your children in your home at 2515.

Mrs. PAINE. West Fifth.

Mr. JENNER. West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex. Now would you please relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us who Mr. Everett Glover was and how you became acquainted with him.

What was the milieu?

Mrs. PAINE. I met Mr. Glover at a group gathered to sing madrigals together. These are old English songs where each part has a melody and it was for the enjoyment of reading the music and in harmony, and we often had coffee afterward and would talk.

Mr. JENNER. This included your husband, however, did it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes indeed.

Mr. JENNER. You had a common interest in this?

Mrs. PAINE. Madrigal singing?

Mr. JENNER. Madrigal singing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And went together.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. And then Everett knew that I was interested in learning Russian well enough to teach it, and since this gathering was to include some people who spoke Russian, he invited me and he invited Michael also to attend. Michael caught a bad cold and wasn't able to go.

I went.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, could I interrupt you a moment here. Though your husband was living in his own quarters, the relations between you, however, were not so disruptive but what you were friendly, and you were attending these singing groups?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I saw him perhaps once or twice a week for dinner at my house, and we went out to rather more movies than some of my married friends.

Mr. JENNER. There was reasonable cordiality?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I don't wish to pry into your private life.

Mrs. PAINE. If it is pertinent, go ahead.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there is some necessity. We might touch a little on your private life if you will forgive me for doing it. Mr. Glover, is he a single person?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at the time of the party. He has been divorced from his wife. He is now remarried.

Mr. JENNER. Now I interrupted you at the point at which you were relating that Mr. Glover had raised with you, I assume this was a telephone call, that he was going to have some guests. He knew of your interest in the study and the learning of the Russian language and its use?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do I correctly summarize it up to the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have an entry in your calendar as I recall on this subject. There is a question mark.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall it says "Everett?"

Mr. JENNER. May I hand the witness the document?

Mr. McCLOY. You may.

Mr. JENNER. This will be Commission Exhibit No. 401. Gentlemen for the purpose of identification of the exhibit, it is Mrs. Paine's calendar which she used in part as a diary and part to record prospective appointments and she surrendered it to the FBI. This is not merely a photostat, it is a picture taken with a camera of that calendar.

(Commission Exhibit No. 401 was marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. May I ask you a question or two about it Mrs. Paine. Did you not go through each of the pages of that calendar with me this morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And I asked you, did I not, whether it was all in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. You did.

Mr. JENNER. Except for the identification on the front, the officer who received it from you--he made a notation of the date of receipt--it is all in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And it is in the same condition now, isn't it, as it was when you surrendered it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the diary page to which I have reference in connection with the first meeting with Marina Oswald, and that is what month and what page and what date?

Mrs. PAINE. It is on the page for February, and the only thing I can----

Mr. McCLOY. February what year?

Mrs. PAINE. February 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And the day please?

Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation on the 22d of February.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, there is a square with the figure 22 in it indicating February 22, 1963. Do you have something written in there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is written in there?

Mrs. PAINE. It says "Everett's?"

Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that and how it related to what you are now telling us?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it refers to the invitation to come to his home. As I recall, he telephoned me twice, first to say that they might get together a group of people, hence the question mark. Then he called again to say they were going to have a party, and to make the invitation definite.

Mr. JENNER. Now you used the expression "I believe." Is that your best recollection at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And I went over this with you this morning and you gave me the same explanation, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now did that event take place?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what is your best recollection as to the day of the month it took place?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no other way of guessing when it was except to assume that this notation means it was on the 22d of February.

Mr. JENNER. And that does represent your present best recollection refreshed to the extent it is refreshed by the memorandum before you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and of course this first----

Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that?

Mrs. PAINE. That was a Friday.

Mr. JENNER. Friday night. You attended the party did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Mr. McCLOY. I believe you used the word Friday. I don't believe she did, Friday night. You said Friday night.

Mrs. PAINE. It was Friday evening.

Mr. JENNER. Friday evening?

Mrs. PAINE. The 22d was Friday. I don't recall.

Mr. McCLOY. You used the word "evening"?

Mrs. PAINE. It was an evening party.

Mr. JENNER. It was held in Mr. Glover's home was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.

Mr. JENNER. Where is his home?

Mrs. PAINE. At that time he was living in the Highland Park section of Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. How far from your home is that?

Mrs. PAINE. Half hour drive.

Mr. JENNER. By what means did you get to Mr. Glover's home?

Mrs. PAINE. I drove.

Mr. JENNER. You owned or then had, or maybe you still have a station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the same car still?

Mrs. PAINE. It is the same car.

Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived, were either of the Oswalds present?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I recall accurately. I think they came a little after I arrived.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best recollection of all the people, couples if you can remember them that way, and then single persons or persons there without their wives or husbands, as the case may be, that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I will try. The Oswalds, two were there, Marina and Lee, Everett Glover, the host, Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt who were the friendship link between the Oswalds and Glover.

Mr. JENNER. Could I interrupt you there? Had you known the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. PAINE. I had never met them. I have not met them since.

Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That you ever saw either Mr. or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You had no conversations, no letters, no contact whatsoever with them either before or after this party?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, no contact whatsoever before or after. There was a roommate of Everett's. Dirk, I think, I forget the name.

Mr. JENNER. Are you attempting to recall his first name or his last name?

Mrs. PAINE. His first name. I may be wrong. It was a young German fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Schmidt?

Mrs. PAINE. Do you know the first name?

Mr. JENNER. No, I don't recall the first name.

Mrs. PAINE. And he had two roommates, so that is two other single men, and I don't recall their names.

Mr. JENNER. Was each of them there?

Mrs. PAINE. They were both there.

Mr. JENNER. There were two roommates.

Mrs. PAINE. Two roommates and they were both present at the party. I should remember their names but I don't.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And there was a couple who lived in Irving; again I don't recall the name. I don't believe I have seen any of these people since with the exception of one of the roommates once, and again I don't recall the name.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the roommate the second----

Mrs. PAINE. I may have seen him since. All these people were new to me when I came to the party with the exception of Everett.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the roommate the second time before or after November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was before.

Mr. JENNER. But it is a fact that none of these people who were at the party other than Mr. Glover had you seen or heard of?

Mrs. PAINE. Before.

Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that the party was held.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your present recollection as to the people who were present on that occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't get a name. The couple were living in Irving, I recall that, but I don't--I have forgotten their name.

Mr. JENNER. Now the Oswalds arrived shortly after the party began or at least after you arrived?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe they came with the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. And you were introduced, were you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was introduced.

Mr. JENNER. By whom?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It was a very informal gathering. Marina was wearing slacks and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt also was. I doubt pains were taken with the introductions.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Mrs. PAINE. I doubt any pains were taken with the introductions.

Mr. JENNER. How long did the party proceed?

Mrs. PAINE. It must have started something after 8 o'clock and went until towards midnight.

Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in square dancing and that sort of thing also. Did you do any of that then?

Mrs. PAINE. No. We talked and ate.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do any madrigal singing?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No singing that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now before I get to any specificity with respect to Marina and Lee Oswald, was Russian spoken that night by anybody?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who else at the party had some facility with Russian in addition to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Just the De Mohrenschildts, both of them, and myself.

Mr. JENNER. And yourself. Did you mention that Mr. Glover had some interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I don't believe he does.

Mr. JENNER. He did not, all right. Were the Oswalds really the center of attention that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so, yes, although you can't say that there was a single center for the entire evening. It wasn't like being invited to hear what he had to say. It was much more informal than that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with her during the course of the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Very briefly. She spent the first part of the evening trying to get June to go to sleep.

Mr. JENNER. June is her daughter?

Mrs. PAINE. The little girl with her.

Mr. JENNER. She brought her daughter with her did she?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and then we talked some in the kitchen with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, Marina and I.

Mr. JENNER. And what subject did you ladies pursue?

Mrs. PAINE. I really can't remember. The actual conversation with Marina didn't cover much time at all. I saw very little of her that evening.

Mr. JENNER. That evening?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Can you remember any subject you talked to her about in the kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What subjects were discussed, I assume in the living room or--where everybody was gathered? Do you recall what was being pursued there in the way of conversation.

Mrs. PAINE. Part of the time Lee talked with people who were asking him about his trip to Russia. I believe Everett had told me that he had been, so I knew that when I arrived. And the fact that he had gone intending to become a citizen in the Soviet Union. He talked freely and with considerable interest in his subject to the three or four people around him.

Mr. JENNER. Were you gathered in that group?

Mrs. PAINE. Part of the time at least I was listening to that. He spoke of the things about the Soviet Union that had displeased him, as for instance the censorship. He knew that it had been going on regarding his letters.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when you talk in terms of conclusion, we have a little trouble testifying. If you will give us examples such as you just gave us about censorship, could we go back a moment to the conversation about his going to Russia. During the course of that subject, in questions put to him, was anything he listed as to why he went to Russia? May I have a yes or no first?

Do you recall anything like that?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't be certain that this is when I first got an idea about why he wanted to go or whether I learned this later.

Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you enough so that there is a fair possibility that--it is important to us--was the subject discussed at that gathering?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. And that is your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us your best recollection of what he said or what Marina said, but primarily what Mr. Oswald said on that subject. Why did he go to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. I carry the impression, and I think it is recalled from this evening----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. When you say you carry the impression you are saying "It is my present recollection."

Mrs. PAINE. All right. That he spoke of himself as a Marxist that evening, that he had read certain Marxist books and thought that the Soviet economic system was superior to ours, and wanted to go to the Soviet Union and live there.

Mr. JENNER. What response was elicited from others at the meeting, agreement?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I would not say there was any agreement. People were interested. This is an unusual thing to do. And they were interested in hearing how he found Soviet life, what he thought of it, whether he was pleased or disappointed.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the members of the Commission what Mr. Oswald said in those respects, to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned that he was displeased with the censorship, or at least he commented on it in a way that I took as unfavorable.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Ma'am.

Did he say he was----

Mrs. PAINE. What had happened, yes.

Mr. JENNER. What censorship is he talking about?

Mrs. PAINE. He referred to a letter that had been sent to him by Robert Oswald that he later learned, after he had come back to the United States, had been sent. He had not received it. He judged that they had simply stopped it, and he commented that they are more apt to just take a letter than take out a piece of it and then send it on, and that censorship is more obvious.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go on.

Mrs. PAINE. I wondered, listening to him, whether he really was----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please. Before we get to what you wondered about, exhaust your recollection as to what he said, what others might have said on the subjects in his presence about which he talked.

Mrs. PAINE. That is all I can think of.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned, also, Mrs. Paine, that there was discussed that evening the subject of his return to America.

Mrs. PAINE. Obviously, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Why he returned, was that subject discussed?

Mrs. PAINE. Not very much, no. I can't recall any specifics relating to that.

Mr. JENNER. All you can recall, I take it, at the moment, is that there was an allusion to the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he was clearly here, yes. He had come back, and--well, I have to put it in terms of what I guess or what I feel was his reaction. I can't give you a specific recall.

Mr. JENNER. We have no objection to your doing that. We would like to have you first state all you can recall as to what specifically happened in this instance. How did Mr. Oswald treat or regard--what relationship did you gather existed between Marina and her husband, a cordial one as of that occasion, separating from what you learned afterward, but just this initial instance. What impression did you have?

Mrs. PAINE. Almost none. There was very little contact between them during the evening. He spoke English to those that were asking them questions. She was either in the bedroom by herself trying to get the little baby to go to sleep, or in the kitchen speaking Russian to the De Mohrenschildts. I listened more than I spoke in that situation.

Mr. JENNER. When Mr. Oswald was in the living room with you ladies and gentlemen, the conversation was in English, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that when Marina returned to the room Russian was spoken, at least by those who had command of the Russian language.

Mrs. PAINE. When she was in the same room, there was more than one conversation going on, and in two languages.

Mr. JENNER. When anybody spoke to Marina----

Mrs. PAINE. It was in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. It was in Russian. When people spoke with each other other than with Marina, it was in English, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in very short compass what was your impression of Mr. Oswald at that initial party?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he was pleased to be interesting to this group of people and glad to tell them about his experience, to answer their questions. He seemed open and forthright. I did wonder as he was talking about it whether he had come to the conclusion after being in the Soviet Union that their system was inferior.

Mr. JENNER. Inferior to ours?

Mrs. PAINE. To ours, or whether he still thought that the Soviet system was a better one. His discussion of the censorship made me feel that he wanted his listeners to know that he was not blind to the defects of the Soviet system, but it did not convince me that he was in favor of the American system. I was left wondering which country he thought conducted itself better.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in the Oswalds at this moment wholly apart from your interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were you intellectually curious about them is all I meant.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. Well, it is most unusual to take such a step as he took.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had some notice in advance of this meeting, Mrs. Paine, of the fact that Mr. Oswald was at least--there had been publications of his having been a defector?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, a name is always given to someone who goes to the Soviet Union and wants to have citizenship there, isn't it, so I could well have assumed that there had been such, but I really didn't learn about it until after the assassination, I guess. No; I take it back.

There was a reference now.

Mr. JENNER. That evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Specific recall. It is coming. The content of Robert's letter to him, as I recall, included a clipping from the Fort Worth newspapers relative to his defection.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, you are talking about a letter of Robert Oswald's?

Mrs. PAINE. A letter from Robert to Lee which Lee never got but heard about when he came back to the States.

Mr. JENNER. And that was the subject of discussion that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. That came up, so, therefore, I did know that he had been called a defector.

Mr. JENNER. Did Robert refer to this letter or did someone in the meeting refer to the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Lee referred to the letter in discussion of censorship.

Mr. JENNER. But up until that moment, you had not had any prior impression with respect to whether he had been a defector or an attempted defector?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think, yes; I had some impression of that sort, but it came directly from Lee. He said he went to the Soviet Union and tried to give up his American citizenship, and as I recall, he said that the American embassy did not relinquish his passport, and, therefore, he was not eligible to get Soviet citizenship.

Mr. JENNER. You are remembering more now.

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. I am pleased that you are, Mrs. Paine. He did discuss his attempts to obtain----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To surrender his passport and to accomplish his Soviet citizenship?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that was openly discussed in this gathering?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. This is Senator Cooper, a member of the Commission, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. How do you do?

Mr. JENNER. This party, I gather, lasted approximately from 7 to 12, did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. Eight to eleven-thirty or twelve.

Mr. JENNER. And the party broke up, and you went home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was your overall impression of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I had very little impression altogether. I did ask for her address.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that?

Mrs. PAINE. And I asked if I could write her. I wanted to go visit her at her home.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. PAINE. To talk Russian. She is very hard to find, a person speaking modern Russian, and in fact I know of no other, and this was an opportunity for me to again practice in the language, a rather unusual opportunity, and I was interested in meeting her and getting to know her.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I will go back and develop this lady's interest in the Russian language during the course of the examination, and her prior study of the language up to this point. She did have an abiding interest in the language at this particular point, but I wanted to get at the initial meeting first before anything further.

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. JENNER. You say modern Russian, that Marina Oswald had a command of modern Russian. Would you please explain to us what you mean by that?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am not in a position to judge a person, whether a person is speaking modern Russian or not. My language is not that good, but she talked with--this was later, I only assumed that she had--I hoped that she spoke good Russian. I didn't know at that time whether she spoke educated Russian or not. Shall I jump ahead?