Part 64

Mr. PAINE. I think I was nervous. I know I was trying to assemble a vibration meter and could not put in the screws or I kept making mistakes. I was preoccupied. Of course, the darn fools, we should have all stopped to mourn the President, but it is kind of a habit, I wasn't accustomed, habit drove us on, very unhappy or unresolved emotional time. I thought, firstly, Frank was quite insistent, he didn't just ask me once, but several times, whether I didn't think I should call the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought you should call the FBI?

Mr. PAINE. Well, he would have, but he is of that nature. At one time he had seen someone taking pictures of Hensley Field, which has signs on the outside "No Photographs Allowed," and I said I believe more in freedom. It seems to me if the field doesn't want the pictures taken, they had better put up a big fence. But he had gone ahead and called up the base commander, and the base commander knew the man. That was his normal mode of behavior, whereas my normal defense is of the individual, and I didn't think--I would not like to, if Lee is falsely accused, I wouldn't want to be jumping on him with the mob. If he is properly, if he is guilty, he will be found. They know he works there, he is connected to us. I couldn't contribute to his capture, so that my withholding information wouldn't harm the search for the right man, and having jumped on him unfairly I might be ashamed of that later on. So that was my feeling in regard to whether I should call the FBI. I think I just kind of felt cold sweats or something like that in regard to the question could he have done that thing. I don't think I went much beyond that, could he, could he.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Krystinik indicate to you any reason for his desire to call the FBI? Did he suspect Oswald had done this on the basis of his knowledge of Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me very reasonable that he should think so. Of course, I don't think the others were so sharply aware, the others in the lab were so sharply aware that we were wrestling with this problem.

The CHAIRMAN. He didn't say anything to you, he didn't tell you any other reason?

Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't; but his reaction seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. PAINE. I felt the same one--if you were to pick out somebody in that building, it was a rather singular coincidence we knew this man who was so negative to our society and not an ingratiating person, not a person with compassion or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you arrive at your home in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. I would guess about 3 or 3:30, somewhere in that neighborhood.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there when you arrived?

Mr. PAINE. The police, the Dallas police mostly were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was there?

Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you said when you arrived?

Mr. PAINE. I don't know. No, I don't remember what I said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say in words or substance, "I came right home as soon as I heard the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building?"

Mr. PAINE. No, I came right home as soon as I heard Lee Oswald mentioned. I did not come home.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that you came right home as soon as you heard that Oswald was involved?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I said something like that. Ruth asked me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage. Was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been previously searched by the police or anyone else?

Mr. PAINE. This I don't remember very well. But, as I remember, this was not the first time we had gone in there. I think, perhaps, they went into--I don't remember, but I don't think it was the first time they had gone in.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said when you did go into the garage, however, the blanket was there in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. I think it was. It was still there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. Before you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you into the garage with the police officers?

Mr. PAINE. I think they were further in in the garage. I think I stayed--the band saw is fairly close to--there is an overhead door to the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up. In other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and I think I stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the inside end of the garage.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife was with the police officers further in?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina Oswald there?

Mr. PAINE. Failure of recollection, I would say, yes. But it is a very fuzzy recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us where the blanket was found?

Mr. PAINE. It doesn't really make sense as to why they would still leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed at that time, but I kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation, a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been, underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. And I think he put it back there. He may have asked me at that time, "Did you know what was in this?"

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that?

Mr. PAINE. And that is why I think they asked me, it may have been as early as that, whether it was a rifle, "Do you think it could have been a rifle?" I don't remember how it was posed, but I probably answered when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was a rifle, because they had already learned from Marina that he had had a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know they had previously asked Marina about that?

Mr. PAINE. No; but I think--I'm just telling you my impressions here, very fuzzy impressions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. PAINE. My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this puzzle of the pieces that I had been trying to assemble in the package.

Mr. LIEBELER. What else happened?

Mr. PAINE. We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket then even.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Dallas police officer?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he was in taking those objects.

So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought we were--he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that we would suggest that he should do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they happened to come to your house?

Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember. I think I may have asked it, "You found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations about this blanket?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously identified, particularly Commission 142?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that happened during this period prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant or that we ought to know about?

Mr. PAINE. No; very little happened. We just bundled up and went. Marina was--whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went with the police?

Mr. PAINE. We went with the police in several cars and didn't come back until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again; didn't want the Life reporters to take photographs, so I don't think they went in the garage to take photographs. Several--their possessions were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, Dallas, and Irving and FBI, and what not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963, there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this before?

Mr. PAINE. I had heard that--I didn't know it was associated with our numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it was some other part of the country.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time during Saturday, November 23, on the telephone?

Mr. PAINE. I was in the police station again, and I think I called her from there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who was responsible?

Mr. PAINE. And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive in your recollection that you made no such remark?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us your impression and your opinion of the relationship that had developed between Marina Oswald and your wife during the period that they knew each other up to the time of the assassination and subsequent to the assassination when, as we discussed briefly yesterday, there came to be a cooling off between them or a disenchantment.

Mr. PAINE. Ruth was mostly learning the language, so she was limited in her vocabulary and couldn't talk about--she explained to me she couldn't talk about--political or economic subjects. It was a topic on which her vocabulary didn't serve her, but it did appear she had spoken of quite a number of things. Marina had told her about movies she had seen in the Soviet Union, but I thought that the knowledge, Ruth's knowledge, I suppose Ruth's knowledge of Marina was fairly shallow. And Marina was quite reserved. Now, it may have been more so when I was in the house that she was not as much at ease as she was, perhaps, with Ruth herself.

Of course, Marina was in a position where she always had to be polite. Ruth is easy to get along with, however, so I didn't expect Marina to have difficulty. But I didn't think Ruth and Marina were bosom friends or buddies, but neither, of course, I didn't mean to suggest the opposite.

Ruth was enjoying Marina's company and I was glad to have Marina staying with Ruth. It actually reduced the cost. Ruth saved money. The bills were less while Marina was there, and Ruth, in general, was happier.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn----

Mr. PAINE. I didn't think Ruth knew Marina very well, but I don't know how well she knew her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently or are you aware that subsequent to the assassination there has been a disenchantment or some strain between Marina and Ruth?

Mr. PAINE. Several things happened. Ruth was put out when she learned Marina knew afterward that Oswald had taken a shot at Walker, if that were true. She thought that was quite morally remiss on Marina's part, and so we talked about that thing.

Mr. DULLES. When did she learn that?

Mr. PAINE. This was in the newspaper report.

Mr. DULLES. She only learned it through the newspaper?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct. So we discussed the mitigating circumstances of Marina not knowing the language and not knowing who she could go to if she wanted to stay in this country and, perhaps--we believe there were extenuating circumstances which would, perhaps, excuse Marina. Ruth was troubled about that, and so she wrote a series of quite a number of letters, each one referring to previous letters, trying to discover whether they were being withheld, thinking Marina was a responsible person or normally civil person, she would normally respond to or at least acknowledge receipt of them.

So Ruth didn't know whether she was receiving them or not, and had another--some encounters with Martin and Thorne which didn't put her at ease. She still didn't know whether Marina was receiving them. She saw only some of the checks had been signed by Thorne rather than Marina. Thorne had said that Marina didn't say he had power of attorney, and Marina was trying to do everything that she could which, at least, she could sign her checks, checks or gifts.

So there were these indications. Ruth was very much in the dark, not knowing why she had received no communication from Marina, and having conflicting reports from Martin. Martin said she had a phone right beside her if she wanted to call.

Mr. DULLES. How did she receive these checks?

Mr. PAINE. I guess Ruth--some of the checks came to Ruth as gifts to her, and Ruth would write her own check so she got her own stub back.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. PAINE. Therefore, Ruth had this question of whether she had offended Marina or whether Marina had done something that offended Ruth or whether Marina didn't like Ruth and had never let on. This would be a great blow to her ego. It had Ruth in great periods of depression and anxiety.

Mr. DULLES. Did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know Robert Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. We only met him for the first time on the night of the assassination. We both liked him at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, is there any other subject that we haven't covered in the testimony that you think the Commission ought to know about in connection with this assassination?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe there is anything else that I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any questions, Mr. Dulles?

Mr. DULLES. The only question I have in mind is as to what took place as far as Mr. Paine is concerned on the night of the assassination. Were you in the police station?

Mr. PAINE. We went down to the police and stayed there until about 8 or 9 o'clock. Then Marguerite came home with us and spent the night.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't see Lee Harvey at that time, did you?

Mr. PAINE. They asked me and I declined to see him at that time. I changed my mind. When they immediately asked me, I declined. I did not know what he would ask me, so I did not see him.

Mr. DULLES. You did not see him?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did your wife see him?

Mr. PAINE. I think no one saw him. Marina went in the next morning hoping to see him.

Mr. DULLES. There were no conversations that took place that evening that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know?

Mr. PAINE. Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent.

Mr. DULLES. But to your knowledge neither you nor your wife had any conversations with Marina or Robert that would throw any light on this apparent coolness?

Mr. PAINE. Ruth apparently saw Marina this last weekend. We have some indications that people had gone between, chiefly Levine.

Mr. DULLES. You think money considerations had anything to do with this?

Mr. PAINE. I think quite a lot--it will be borne out, between Ruth and Marina subsequently, I think they will find the difficulties. I think Thorne----

Mr. DULLES. What I have in mind is as to whether some of these other people thought that you and Ruth might intervene in as business manager or something of that kind between them, and the monetary considerations that were coming in to Marina.

Mr. PAINE. We didn't know why. We have the feeling that Thorne was advising her not to speak to Ruth. Ruth is not interested in the money, but is interested in protecting her from the wolves, and so she thought, we both thought, there were some false stories being told to Marina in regard to Ruth.

Mr. DULLES. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Paine.

Mr. PAINE. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will examine Mrs. Paine this afternoon at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m.

Mr. McCLOY. Before I ask you to be sworn, Mrs. Paine. I will give you a little general indication of what our testimony is apt to cover.

We have heard that you and your husband made the acquaintance of the Oswalds somewhere during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in your home from late September 1963, I believe, to the time of the assassination.

Since we are inquiring under our mandate into the background and the possible motives of the assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, we will question you regarding your association with Mr. Oswald and try to glean from you any other facts that may bear upon the assassination or its motivation.

I believe you have been furnished with a copy of the executive order under which we are operating as well as the Congressional resolution?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Now if you will please stand, I will swear you.

Mrs. PAINE. I would like to affirm.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence you will give in this investigation will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. McCLOY. Will you state your full name for the record and your address?

Mrs. PAINE. I am Ruth Hyde Paine. I live at 2515 West Fifth Street, in Irving, Tex.

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Jenner is going to conduct the examination.

Mr. JENNER. Your maiden name?

Mrs. PAINE. Is Hyde.

Mr. JENNER. Ruth Avery Hyde.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You are wife of Michael Ralph Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were born September 3, 1932?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are almost 34 years old.

Mrs. PAINE. Almost 32. I will be 32 in September.

Mr. JENNER. Pretty bad arithmetic. Just a little bit of your background, Mrs. Paine, very little. Your mother and father are living?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And your mother is an Unitarian Minister ordained in the Unitarian Church at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is.

Mr. JENNER. And received her degree in theology last summer I believe, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. No, she has completed her work for a Bachelor of Divinity Degree from Oberlin College and she will receive it in the spring. They don't give them in mid-year. She completed just the first of February.

Mr. JENNER. You yourself are a college graduate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. Yellow Springs.

Mr. JENNER. Yellow Springs, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You have a brother and sister.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your mother, your father, yourself, your brother, and your sister are your entire family.

Mrs. PAINE. My immediate family.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother is a graduate of Antioch also, he and your sister. Are they older than you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they are.

Mr. JENNER. Which is the elder of the two?

Mrs. PAINE. My brother is the oldest.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother is a professional man, is he?

Mrs. PAINE. He is a doctor, general practitioner.

Mr. JENNER. A general physician, and he practices in Yellow Springs, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us where Yellow Springs is?

Mrs. PAINE. It is about 60 miles south and west from Columbus, Ohio, the capital, which is more or less in the middle of the State, and just a little bit east of Dayton.

Mr. JENNER. Is your brother married.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he is.

Mr. JENNER. Does he have a family?

Mrs. PAINE. He has four children.

Mr. JENNER. And is your sister married?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is.

Mr. JENNER. Does she have a family?

Mrs. PAINE. She has four children.

Mr. JENNER. And each of your brothers and your sister, it is their first marriage?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now you were married to Mr. Paine December 28, 1957, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And you were married where, in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. It was suburban Philadelphia. Friends meeting in Media, Pa.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the Friends meeting is which you have mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. I am a member of the Society of Friends often known as Quakers.

Mr. JENNER. You are a Quaker?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. When did you embrace that faith?

Mrs. PAINE. I joined in early 1951, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Has any other member of your family embraced the Quaker faith?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; my brother is also a Quaker.

Mr. JENNER. When did he embrace that faith.

Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time, a year or two one way or the other. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. JENNER. I am afraid I might have been inattentive. When did you say that occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time. I don't remember just when exactly he joined.

Mr. JENNER. I was thinking more as to when you said you did.

Mrs. PAINE. In early '51, I think; I am quite certain it was winter of '51.

Mr. JENNER. You were then in college?

Mrs. PAINE. That was the year out. I went to Antioch one year and then I took a year out and I joined my home meeting in Columbus which I had already attended perhaps 2 years.

Mr. JENNER. And from the time you joined the Quaker church you have been a member of that church?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or that faith?

Mrs. PAINE. Or church; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Ever since?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now you and Mr. Paine, did you take up a residence in Philadelphia as soon as you married?

Mrs. PAINE. I had been living in Philadelphia working there, and then when we married I moved to suburban Philadelphia where Michael was living, Paoli, Pa.

Mr. JENNER. His folks live in Paoli, also, do they not?

Mrs. PAINE. His mother and stepfather.

Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Paoli until when?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was summer of '59 we were in the process of moving, didn't complete it until fall of '59.

Mr. JENNER. I see. You moved to where?

Mrs. PAINE. To Irving, where we are now, to the present address.

Mr. JENNER. To your present home? And that was in the summer of 1959?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At some later stage we will go into what occurred. In the meantime we have you now in Irving, Tex. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You and your husband purchased the home you have there before you went down.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; we stayed at a small apartment for several weeks looking around and then rented for a year, and then we purchased the house we have been renting.

Mr. JENNER. So you purchased that and moved in in 1960, is that about right?

Mrs. PAINE. We first moved into it in the fall of '59.

Mr. JENNER. You rented it and then purchased it.

Mrs. PAINE. The same house; yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you. You have two children?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. A boy and a girl?

Mrs. PAINE. A girl and a boy.

Mr. JENNER. Would you name the oldest of the two.

Mrs. PAINE. Sylvia Lynn and the boy--she is now 4. The boy is Christopher and he is 3.

Mr. JENNER. The point I was getting at, your daughter, Sylvia, was born after you reached Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was her birth?

Mrs. PAINE. She was born on November 17, '59.